Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Proposal for romanization of names of Japanese actors and actresses for the database
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDaddy DVD
Lost in Translation
Registered: March 14, 2007
Netherlands Posts: 2,366
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepageDirect link to this postReply with quote
I got my answer by PM (guess why?) from a French user (The 'Ç' does not exist in France) and it seems RHo was right: "Correct, but we do François when it says FRANCOIS".
Martin Zuidervliet

DVD Profiler Nederlands
 Last edited: by Daddy DVD
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,185
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Martin_Zuidervliet:
Quote:
I got my answer by PM (guess why?) from a French user (The 'Ç' does not exist in France) and it seems RHo was right: "Correct, but we do François when it says FRANCOIS".


I guess that answers that.  And before anybody jumps on me, this is not based on any cultural norm, this is based on 'standard capitalization rules'.  If the lowercase version of 'C' is 'ç', in the French alphabet, then that is what is entered in French profiles.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantFredLooks
phpDVDProfilerDude D5/7/2
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 350
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Without wanting to become embroiled in this, I believe a more correct statement would be:
"The upper-case version of 'ç' is 'C' in the French alphabet." The converse does not necessarily hold true, as I think the upper-case version of 'François' would be 'FRANCOIS', while the upper-case version of 'domicile' would be 'DOMICILE'.

Which is to say that one can deduce the upper-case spelling of a lower-case word in French, but it is not necessarily true that one can deduce the lower-case spelling from the upper-case spelling. Two different lower-case letters map to one upper-case letter.

I çould be çompletely wrong, of çourse 
-fred
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,185
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
You pointed out what should have been obvious.  Don't know how I missed it...I am glad that I included the word 'if' in my statement. 

I did a little more research and 'C' can be 'c' or 'ç', depending on the sound it makes.  If it makes the 'k' sound, it is 'c'.  If it makes the 's' sound, it is 'ç'.

Green arrow for you Fred. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantTom Smith
Registered: March 24, 2007
Canada Posts: 240
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
For name order I think the best thing to do is assume that DVD Profiler, being a US English program (with a "cultural proclivity"  ) that "First Name / Last Name" really means...

First Name = Given Name
Last Name = Family Name

So for an Asian name like Mifune Toshirou
Mifune = Family Name = last name in DVD Profiler
Toshirou = Given Name = first name in DVD Profiler

If First Name is literally the first name to appear when the name is written then you will end up with the same actor listed as...

Mifune/Toshirou for R2 Japan and some R1 DVDs and as Toshirou/Mifune for most R1 DVDs.
Tom.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Wow, talk about a thread hijack.  Take to the French ç thread please.
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantProfessor Desty Nova
Registered: June 12, 2007
Portugal Posts: 5
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Xradman, in your proposal, were you talking about Revised Hepburn or Modified Hepburn, as there are both in the Wikipedia article. It seems it's common to say modified Hepburn when talking about Revised Hepburn.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorpdf256
PC, iOS and Android
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 810
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting tas314:
Quote:
For name order I think the best thing to do is assume that DVD Profiler, being a US English program (with a "cultural proclivity"  ) that "First Name / Last Name" really means...

First Name = Given Name
Last Name = Family Name

So for an Asian name like Mifune Toshirou
Mifune = Family Name = last name in DVD Profiler
Toshirou = Given Name = first name in DVD Profiler

If First Name is literally the first name to appear when the name is written then you will end up with the same actor listed as...

Mifune/Toshirou for R2 Japan and some R1 DVDs and as Toshirou/Mifune for most R1 DVDs.

But this is OK. If we use the common name as shown by the credit lookup tool we can still link them all together. The displayed name will be in the order as shown in the credits, by the 'hidden' linking name will tie it all neatly.

pdf
Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Professor Desty Nova:
Quote:
Xradman, in your proposal, were you talking about Revised Hepburn or Modified Hepburn, as there are both in the Wikipedia article. It seems it's common to say modified Hepburn when talking about Revised Hepburn.

It's actually neither.  The system I proposed is wapuro romaji, which is most commonly used to enter Japanese using roman keyboards.  It's used commonly with Anime.  The advantage is that you get away from the use of accent characters and there is always one to one correspondance between Japanese vowel and romanization.

Wiki article on Wapuro Romaji
My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantFredLooks
phpDVDProfilerDude D5/7/2
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 350
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
...one to one correspondance between Japanese bowel and romanization...


I don't know ... this sounds messy 
-fred
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
prev. known as ya_shin
Registered: March 13, 2007
Taiwan, Province of China Posts: 3,415
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting FredLooks:
Quote:
I don't know ... this sounds messy 

I'd rather not think about it...


You are naughty, Fred... 
Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative)
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting FredLooks:
Quote:
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
...one to one correspondance between Japanese bowel and romanization...


I don't know ... this sounds messy 

Dang, how did I make this mistake?  My mind must be on other things
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantTheFly
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 103
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
+1 vote from me for using Wapuro romaji (though shouldn't that be Waapuro roumaji?). I own and contribute a lot of anime titles so come across this quite often. This could be applied to show/film/DVD titles as well as cast lists when the title is in Japanese.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantProfessor Desty Nova
Registered: June 12, 2007
Portugal Posts: 5
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting xradaman:
Quote:
The system I proposed is wapuro romaji


Since the article in Wikipedia says wapuro can be applied to the various forms of romaji, what I get from your first post is that you are proposing the application of the wapuro to the Revised Hepburn romaji. My doubt was if the starting point was Revised or Modified Hepburn (I hope I got the question clear enough this time )


Quoting TheFly:
Quote:
This could be applied to show/film/DVD titles as well as cast lists when the title is in Japanese.


This actually was my inicial question...

PS: Maybe this topic should be Pinned, so everybody sees it and if there is no major disagreement, we can start using it without major problems.
 Last edited: by Professor Desty Nova
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Professor Desty Nova:
Quote:
Quoting xradaman:
Quote:
The system I proposed is wapuro romaji


Since the article in Wikipedia says wapuro can be applied to the various forms of romaji, what I get from your first post is that you are proposing the application of the wapuro to the Revised Hepburn romaji. My doubt was if the starting point was Revised or Modified Hepburn (I hope I got the question clear enough this time )

PS: Maybe this topic should be Pinned, so everybody sees it and if there is no major disagreement, we can start using it without major problems.

I would try to keep it simple.  Since wapuro romaji combines characteristics of both Hepburn systems, I would propose that we go by what's commonly accepted (as per Wiki article).

The similar topic on Chinese names is already pinned and is problematic for this version of DVDP for similar reasons.  Until Ken adopts an official rule, I think we can use these proposals as a general guideline since official rules do not cover how we are to romanize non-alphabet characters. 

The same rules can be used to romanize titles as well.  The only thing that I would ask is that original English or western words be not romanized (ie. Death Note, not Desu Noto).
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
By the way, here was another lively discussion on use of international title vs. romanized title.

International Title as an Alternate Title Discussion

and my short comments made in Contribution Rules Committee Forum post

And finally on titles

Quote:

The current rules state:

Quote:

Title
Use the title from the film's credits.

For non-English titles, use capitalization rules common to the language of the title “Tout va bien” is correctly capitalized. “Tout Va Bien” is not
If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language).

Original Title
The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title.  In cases where the title is the original title, leave the Original Title field blank.

Foreign Films: The Original Title field will contain the original title for the main feature in the country of origin.  i.e. A German DVD release for a film originally produced in the United States would have the German title in the Title field and the English title in the Original Title Field.
Modified Titles: The Original Title field will contain the original theatrical title, while the Title field will contain the title of the DVD release.  For instance, for the Special Edition rerelease of There's Something About Mary:
Title: There's Something More About Mary
Original Title: There's Something About Mary


This works great for most western films, but sometimes fails with many Asian films. The problem occurs when their is an International title as well as a Local title for a film. Many Asian films (almost all HK films) have an official international title as well as a local title. Some well known examples might be

International Title (Local Title)

Infernal Affairs (Mou Gaan Dou)
The Promise (Wuji)
Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi)
Police Story (Ging chaat goo si)

Some people have used above interpretation of the rules to strip International title from the database for DVDs of these movies released in Asia (non R1 DVDs). I am not sure that this is desirable.

1. International title is just as much an official title as local title for a movie.
2. International title is displayed along side the local title in both the screen and DVD box
3. Original title is not an original title, but a romanized representation of the local title
4. Current program can accomodate both the International title and the romanized original title with some flexibility in interpretation of above rules.
5. Current program cannot accomodate international title, original title, and local title for those DVDs where all three are different

I am a proponent of using the international title (whenever available) as the main title for all films for DVDs from all regions. If the original title is different from the international title, that can be entered into the original title field.

Therefore, I would like to ask Gerri and Ken to reconsider and allow the following for Asian DVDs

1. International title be allowed in the main title field even if it does not match the locality of the DVD, especially when their is no difference between the original title and local title
2. Romanized version of the original title be listed in the original title field if different from the main title
3. Could a fourth title field be added to the program??? (main/international, sort, original, local)

Examples: Main title (Original Title)

Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi)
JSA (Gongdong Gyeongbi Guyeok)

or

To summarize, this is a solicitation for discussion on International titles for "foreign" movies on released in their local region, NOT for foreign titles released in English speaking region.  For "foreign" movies released in their own country, main title and the original titles are presumably the same.  According to the current rules, there is no leeway to include the valid International title into the profile.  If we could relax or modify the rules on titles, we can include both local title and international title into the profile. 

Example:

R3 Korean DVD of Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (local Korean title) AKA Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (official international title)

The main screen shot of title on this feature shows


Under strict interpretation of current rules -

  Main title: Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (title corresponding to DVD locality of Korea)
  Orginal title: left empty (since original title is same as the local title)

Proposal #1

  Main title: Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (title corresponding to DVD locality of Korea)
  Original title: Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (if we relax the rule to allow original or alternate title)

Proposal #2

  Main title: Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (if we modify the rule to use a common international title for the main title for all regions - personal preference)
  Original title: Chinjeolhan Geum-ja ssi (down side is that this does not leave room for local title if the DVD is released with title different from orginal local title or international in countries other than the original country or English speaking country - ie. DVD released in Germany with title different from the international title)

Frankly, as a Korean, I don't see a downside to INCLUDING an international title so that people other than Korean can make better use of the profile.

Let me also start another discussion on an issue that has been troubling me for some time.

Romanization of western words in Asian titles.

For those of you that may not be familiar with this topic, there are frequently western words (typically English) used in Asian titles. For the local audience, the words may be left in western alphabet or more often phonetically converted to the local language.

Examples: (titles are in original western alphabet followed by romanized version of phonetically written Korean in parentesis, I can't enter native characters into this version the board)

Korean movies

Classic (Keulaesik)
Blue (Buru)
Natural City (Naetyeoral Siti)

Japanese movies

Ring (Ringu)
Macross (Makurosu)
Love Letter (Rabuleta)

Does anyone find this strange? If you ask any Korean or Japanese to write the titles of these movies using western alphabets, almost no one would write the romanized version. The romanized version of the title is bastardized because, the western words cannot be pronounced or phonetic representation written down accurately using their language.  So why should we romanize western words that they badly attempted to phonetically represent?  There are some exception to this concept. There are some western words that have entered into main stream language similar to how Greek and Roman based words are now part of English.  An easy example is Korean word for bread which is bbang taken from French "pain" or word for bus which is bbus. But these are easy to find. They are in Korean and Japanese dictionary as adopted words. (In Japanese, it's even easier, all foreign words are written in special Japanese alphabet called katakana, whereas native Japanese words are written in hiragana)

My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next