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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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About common names |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
I should add that having two different ways of creating a database key is not a good thing, as the recent disc id debacle illustrates.
Also, not all contributors read the forums even if they might use the CLT. No sure what you are getting at here. I am not aware of any database key for cast or crew. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think it is time to clear some things: a) This thread - or at least the predecessor - was opened with an agenda: I voted no onto two contributions of Magmadrag, who tried - and still tries - to replace two correct common name links with obviously IMDb mined CLT data. I am to be blamed for the rather short comment on the no vote (I was a little in a hurry) and I am to be blamed for trying to be helpfull (I included the hint to my list of common names). Short story: Magmadrag refused to accept anything except the CLT and I felt offended. b) I'm not very happy about my name called throughout this thread as being the founder/creator/whatever behind common names. This may serve the initial intention of the other thread, but is far from the truth and not helpfull. c) Although we have to guess on Ken's intentions on many issues, many other issues were covered here in this forum. One of them is name linking and the common name documentation. VirusPil sumarized this topic here - and no, he did not found the common names neither  | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) | | | | Last edited: by AiAustria |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,679 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mediadogg: Quote:
What gets me confused is the conflation between what "is" and what should be. For example, there is no such thing as "common name" in DVD Profiler. There is no API for plugins and no field to look at. No, there is no "common name" in the database. There is just name and "credited as". I know that you know this, so it's probably just the terms that are confusing you. So please forgive me if I'm stating the obvious in order to clear this up. Let's assume that we have a person that is alternatively credited as "Don Smith", "Donald Smith" and "Donald P. Smith". In order for his profiles to link up, we have to chose one of these names to put in the name field in all his profiles. So if we chose "Donald Smith" and use this in all profiles, then we put "Don Smith" or "Donald P. Smith" in the credited as field when that is what his actual credit is in the specific profile. So "Donald Smith" is the common name, the name that is common to all his profiles. The question is - how to we decide what that common name should be. Do we use the most often used name in the database (as given by the CLT) or do we try to find out what is the most often used variant in the actual movie credits? Quote:
I am not aware of any database key for cast or crew. I am talking of logical keys, not necessarily actual physical keys. The name is the key to find all the persons profiles in the database. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,679 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
I'm not very happy about my name called throughout this thread as being the founder/creator/whatever behind common names. I'm sorry if I offended you! I wasn't meaning to imply that you were anything such. I used your name as an example since you had weighed in in this thread. Maybe I ought to have said "the proponent of common name threads". Quote:
This thread - or at least the predecessor - was opened with an agenda I have no agenda as such. I wanted a discussion on what the rules and Ken's statements actually meant in regards to common names. I do have an opinion, though, and I haven't seen anything from Ken that convinces me otherwise. As you can see from the last sentence in my original post, I asked if anyone could point me to statements from Ken that shows that he meant that actual credits should outweigh CLT results. Unlike Magmadrag, I do accept changes based on common name threads. I don't vote no to changes unless I know that they are wrong. And having an opinion and knowing something are two different things. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Seems like I also need to offer an apology. I have no agenda regarding "Profiler politics." My intention was to give credit for what I thought was great work and dedication to do something for the good of all. I'm sorry if it came out any other way.
I will happily drop the whole matter. Trust me, I have a very full life. I do this as a hobby, for fun. It is not a religion or obsession, and I certainly don't want to do things that offend good people. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | @GSyren. I think we are basically on the same page. Yes, I am aware of "Credited As," but it is described in the rules as optional. But even if it were not, we can't get around the fact that a person can name themselves anything they want in the credits. And the rules state that we must list the credit as shown. The main point of a common name is to make sure that we are referring to the same person or entity (do animals have credits?  ). So for that purpose, the common name could even be a number, and in fact could be treated like the key to a table in a relational database. The best way to do this would be an Invelos back-end process that would keep everything up to date. All variants of a credit would point to the same entry in the master cast/crew table. That table would have links to headshots, biographical information, etc., so that when making a contribution, the contributor would simply select the correct person to enter into the common name field (credited as would have to remain and reflect exactly what appears in the credits). But that's all pipe dreams, and that's all folks! | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Not offended. Just not very happy: Though I'm rather invested into common names the whole linking/name/credited as/... topic is much bigger...
Everything OK. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: May 25, 2007 | | Posts: 127 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
The question is - how to we decide what that common name should be. Do we use the most often used name in the database (as given by the CLT) or do we try to find out what is the most often used variant in the actual movie credits?
The latter makes more sense to me: As people try to make the credit data as accurate as possible, the data will eventually shift more towards the actual movie credits, which will eventually in theory make the answer the same for both anyway. The only tricky area would be for actors who are in a movie with an unusually high number of DVD releases with a different name than they normally use. But those are probably a minority of cases. |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AndyEN: Quote:
... As people try to make the credit data as accurate as possible, ...
Could not observe this. Accuracy it the big issue: Entering and copying IMDb data (without rechecking) leads to our current mess. At least the majority of it; there are some minor mine fields like names shared by different people contributing to this mess also... Quote:
The only tricky area would be for actors who are in a movie with an unusually high number of DVD releases with a different name than they normally use. No, titles are prefered over number profiles: as long as the original title is entered correctly, a thousand profiles for the latest Marvel movie count as one title. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mediadogg: Quote:
And the rules state that we must list the credit as shown. The main point of a common name is to make sure that we are referring to the same person or entity (do animals have credits? ). So for that purpose, the common name could even be a number, and in fact could be treated like the key to a table in a relational database.
But that's all pipe dreams, and that's all folks!
Way back when I still had hoped that Ken would continue to improve the program I even created a demo program how we could convert the current cast and crew system into one with an Id and how contributing new cast / crew members could look like. It even had the option to not link a credited cast entry to a person. I only had a screen recorder back then without audio but now it's a mute, erm I mean moot point anyway. | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
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| | Registered: May 25, 2007 | | Posts: 127 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mediadogg: Quote:
(do animals have credits? ). A bit of a tangent, but in another thread, someone mentioned there are multiple horses credited as Trigger, not just Roy Rogers', so yes animal credits have to be audited just like the human credits. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,679 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm a little disappointed that nobody has been able to answer my question from my original post: Quote:
Given that the common name threads started to appear long before Ken vanished from the forums, one would assume that he would have said something about it. Perhaps someone who keeps better track than me of Ken’s postings can enlighten us? The common name threads represent a valiant effort to document the actual most common names, but ... ultimately it just scratches the surface. How many names are there in Invelos' online database? I don't think anyone but knows that, except possibly Ken. But I did some checking in my local database of 8930 profiles, and it contains 181679 different names. The list of conclusive common names in the forum consists of 1366 entries., comprising 4281 name variants (if I counted correctly). So, even if you check the list for every credit that you enter, you'll always be stuck with a mix of CLT results and results from the common names list. Admittedly, the CLT is far from perfect. But it is - in my opinion - still the best way to establish a common name. And if you need help to determine if a certain name may refer to more than one person, CLTBoss + CLTinfo can be of some help. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well I said I was out, but I can't ignore the last good posts. @DJDoena, maybe it is not too late? Go ahead and give us that tool, and use a custom field to store the ID? There are ways to put data in your Profiler folders that cause DVD Profiler to backup and restore them, so a small data table that belongs to the tool could be hosted there. Your Demo might be muted, but the work is definitely not moot!  (don't you hate it when people misuse those) @GSyren, I have been thinking of restoring the automated scan of multiple variants. I have other ideas, but I'm going to keep out of this domain for awhile. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. | | | | Last edited: by mediadogg |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mediadogg: Quote:
@DJDoena, maybe it is not too late? Go ahead and give us that tool, and use a custom field to store the ID? There are ways to put data in your Profiler folders that cause DVD Profiler to backup and restore them, so a small data table that belongs to the tool could be hosted there.
It was just a mock-up but the entire project can be found on Github. Quote:
Your Demo might be muted, but the work is definitely not moot! (don't you hate it when people misuse those) It's moo! | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
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| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Oh man, I loved that show and those guys! Actually one of them was often at one of our favorite restaurants in pre-Covid times. It was remarkable how much the real person, was like the character. Way off topic, but I think that happens a lot. When the actor is able to mold a character that is in fact partly a reflection of themselves, we as the audience get the benefit. In that case, there is nothing wrong with type casting. But then there are the wizards, the geniuses - Meryl Streep, Tom Hanks, Morgan Freeman, Will Smith, Christian Bale, Cher - yes Cher (Moonstruck was a masterpiece), that can transform into almost anybody. Sorry for the sidetrack. Running off teary-eyed to watch some movies! | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. | | | | Last edited: by mediadogg |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AndyEN: Quote:
Quoting mediadogg:
Quote:
(do animals have credits? ).
A bit of a tangent, but in another thread, someone mentioned there are multiple horses credited as Trigger, not just Roy Rogers', so yes animal credits have to be audited just like the human credits. That was me! I have a couple of box sets of Roy Rogers films, and in doing the credits and determining common name for Gabby Hayes, I also found that Trigger needed a birthyear. There's also a cat named Trigger as well as two other horses (both in films decades after the famous Trigger's death). | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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