Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2  Previous   Next
Capitalization of "with" in proposed rule change
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
Registered Sept 5 2005
Registered: May 20, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 2,934
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:


And that would be your opinion. Just as I would think I was taught the right way.  If they are different does that make either one of us wrong?



I think you missed it at the end of my last post.  I learned the "right" way from a list of "right" ways...

I am not saying that any particular styleguide is wrong, and the proposed rule, is not what I was taught.  That does not mean that it is wrong either.  It ends up being a consensus.  maybe call it "DVD Profiler style guide" as short as it is...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,131
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
I guess one more screwy rule that forces incorrect data to be contributed won't make that much of a difference.

No, it won't, so there's no need for you to distress yourself over it.

---------------


I'm not distressed over it. Actually I really don't care what anyone else does. Just pointing out my expectations are not very high, based on the existing rules/guidelines wording, and the non-existent Ken.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,202
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting MtnMike:
Quote:
I have to disagree about capitalizing the word 'with'. 

I can't help but compare it to the similar word 'from'.  Those two words can act within a title in the same capacity, yet I do not see folks clamoring for a decision on the word 'from' as well.  Both are four letters in length and can serve as a conjuntive word, so why is one in contention while the other is not?

Honestly?  Because there was an attempt to change a profile that contained the word 'with', that received a no vote because the change did not follow the confusing rule, and the person who made the contribution decided to bring it to the forums, which eventually led to a thread in the Rules forum.

My recommendation, in the rules forum, was to pick an existing style...one that actually exists in the real world...and stick with it.  For me, The U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual seemed the best because it was short and fairly close to what we already have.

I am 100% against an arbitrary list created for convenience because, as your post illustrates, other words can and will pop up.  Why 'with' and 'within' or 'without'?
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
Registered: May 29, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 3,475
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:

Honestly?  Because there was an attempt to change a profile that contained the word 'with', that received a no vote because the change did not follow the confusing rule, and the person who made the contribution decided to bring it to the forums, which eventually led to a thread in the Rules forum.


Since this discussion pertains to me, I would like to comment on this section of the post.

Based on my understanding of the capitalization rules I contributed the change "With" > "with". When I received TheMadMartian's "no" vote, I withdrew that contribution.

I spent many hours over the next day or so researching the topic. I checked several sources and checked hundreds of profiles in the invelos' database.

I came to the conclusion that my contribution was in fact correct. I based this on both the research and the fact that the vast majority of contributions did NOT capitalize "with".

Rather than just re-submitting this change, I brought the topic to the forums to see what others in the community thought.

Based on that poll, as well as other threads that arose from that one, the  majority of community members agreed with my understanding of the rules.

If, as you say, the rule is "confusing" then it rightly should have been brought to the rules committee for clarification.

I understand your desire to use an existing style and, if implemented, I will follow it.

But, based on community feedback, The U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual list is not inclusive enough.

I do not know what the "best" answer is but discussing the topic is one way to find it.
 Last edited: by Kathy
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWigram
Don't blink!
Registered: June 6, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Canada Posts: 950
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:

I am 100% against an arbitrary list created for convenience because, as your post illustrates, other words can and will pop up.  Why 'with' and 'within' or 'without'?


I can understand being against a list that does not corresponds strictly to an existing standard. But it will not by no means be an arbitrary list: it will be the list reflecting the wishes of the majority.

Also, the list will in fact have an effect exactly opposite to the one you fear. Once implemented in the rule, the matter will be settled at last. No other word will pop pup, as you say, because it will be against the rules.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,202
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Wigram:
Quote:
I can understand being against a list that does not corresponds strictly to an existing standard. But it will not by no means be an arbitrary list: it will be the list reflecting the wishes of the majority.

The fact that it is based on the wishes of a bunch of users, rather than an established style, is exactly what makes it arbitrary.
Quote:
Also, the list will in fact have an effect exactly opposite to the one you fear. Once implemented in the rule, the matter will be settled at last. No other word will pop pup, as you say, because it will be against the rules.

Call me pessimistic, but  history tells me that adding something to the rules doesn't automatically settle anything.  Because the list is user defined, it is only a matter of time before someone decides another word should be added.  I hope I am wrong, but time will tell.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,131
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorOrici
Registered: May 18, 2007
United States Posts: 389
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
I think "are" might be added to this list as well
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKulju
Registered: March 14, 2007
Finland Posts: 2,337
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Orici:
Quote:
I think "are" might be added to this list as well

Why? It's a verb.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Sweden Posts: 4,685
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
I don't much care one way or the other in this matter, but I'll give you my thoughts, if only because I'm curious to hear if anyone agrees with me.

Capitalization doesn't have any practical impact at all. It is purely an aesthetic issue. I think the best solution would be to accept any standard, and only correct entries that obviously do not follow any such standard. If the lack of consistency really bothers you, fix it locally.
My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
Capitalization doesn't have any practical impact at all. It is purely an aesthetic issue. I think the best solution would be to accept any standard, and only correct entries that obviously do not follow any such standard.

That is exactly what I said. And there are same types of problems with other languages that have several standards. So a general "Use capitalization rules common to the language of the title" should be sufficient for all titles.
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,202
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
I don't much care one way or the other in this matter, but I'll give you my thoughts, if only because I'm curious to hear if anyone agrees with me.

Capitalization doesn't have any practical impact at all. It is purely an aesthetic issue. I think the best solution would be to accept any standard, and only correct entries that obviously do not follow any such standard. If the lack of consistency really bothers you, fix it locally.

I could live with this solution as long as it is spelled out that you don't make changes unless they are obviously wrong...though that hasn't worked for genres so I don't hold out much hope here either. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Sweden Posts: 4,685
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I could live with this solution as long as it is spelled out that you don't make changes unless they are obviously wrong...though that hasn't worked for genres so I don't hold out much hope here either. 

Well, "obviously wrong" is a bit more subjective when it comes to genres, but I fear that you may be right anyway.
My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 6,635
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
Other guides say that prepositions and conjunctions of fewer than five letters should be in lowercase.


I prefer this rule. Of course it means that people have to actually know what a preposition and a conjunction are, but a specific list of words will never be complete!

The rule would also need to include all "articles" as well.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2  Previous   Next