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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Middle name: a pure american concept ? |
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| Registered: March 15, 2007 |  Posts: 374 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have a problem with the middle name concept. It seems to be predicated on on a pure american assumption that we have a first name and a surname, and that if we want any extra ones they have to go in between those.
In Germany there is nothing like a middle name, we can have multiple first = given names where one of them is the main first name (Rufname). The terms could be 'main forename' and 'supplementary forename'.
I don't know how this is handled in other European counties, but maybe some other users can enlighten me.
For German actors I feel it is wrong to use the middle name field, since there is nothing like it, no official form ever uses that term. Also how do I credit an actor named 'Gerd Hans Heinz Meier' ? It should be Gerd Hans Heinz//Meier, shouldn't it?
I think we should restrict the use of the middle name field to naming systems where these have particular significance - or lack of significance. In the common german (European?) convention, the only difference between a 'first' forename and a second, third or fourth is that the most popular position for the main one is at the beginning.
Thoughts? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 413 |
| | Posted: | | | | It is the same in Finland as in Germany. Eg. my first nameS are Jyrki Tapio. All official documents (passport, ID cards, driver's license, etc) have two name fields: given names and surname.
However, I do not have any problem using the term "middle name" of my second given name. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Is middle name a mainly American concept? Yes, I guess so. But I have no problem at all to enter all but the first given name into the middle name field. The only problem arises if somebody claims that part of the family name should be put into the middle name field only because the last name has more than one word.  |
|  | Dan W | | Registered: May 9, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 980 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
I have a problem with the middle name concept. It seems to be predicated on on a pure american assumption that we have a first name and a surname, and that if we want any extra ones they have to go in between those.
In Germany there is nothing like a middle name, we can have multiple first = given names where one of them is the main first name (Rufname). The terms could be 'main forename' and 'supplementary forename'.
I don't know how this is handled in other European counties, but maybe some other users can enlighten me.
For German actors I feel it is wrong to use the middle name field, since there is nothing like it, no official form ever uses that term. Also how do I credit an actor named 'Gerd Hans Heinz Meier' ? It should be Gerd Hans Heinz//Meier, shouldn't it?
I think we should restrict the use of the middle name field to naming systems where these have particular significance - or lack of significance. In the common german (European?) convention, the only difference between a 'first' forename and a second, third or fourth is that the most popular position for the main one is at the beginning.
Thoughts? Perhaps the German translation version of the program could have the "first name" and "middle name" field renamed to 'main forename' and 'supplementary forename' (Rufname, und ‚Zusätzlicher Rufname). Would this solve the problem? | | | | Dan |
| | Registered: March 28, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,299 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's the same in Sweden as it is in Germany. Emigrating to Canada it's been giving me some headaches, as my "middle" name is my primary name but all my identifications have only my "first" name and my last name. Stupid first/middle name system.  KM | | | Tags, tags, bo bags, banana fana fo fags, mi my mo mags, TAGS!
Dolly's not alone. You can also clone profiles.
You've got questions? You've got answers? Take the DVD Profiler Wiki for a spin. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
I have a problem with the middle name concept. It seems to be predicated on on a pure american assumption that we have a first name and a surname, and that if we want any extra ones they have to go in between those.
In Germany there is nothing like a middle name, we can have multiple first = given names where one of them is the main first name (Rufname). The terms could be 'main forename' and 'supplementary forename'.
I don't know how this is handled in other European counties, but maybe some other users can enlighten me.
For German actors I feel it is wrong to use the middle name field, since there is nothing like it, no official form ever uses that term. Also how do I credit an actor named 'Gerd Hans Heinz Meier' ? It should be Gerd Hans Heinz//Meier, shouldn't it?
I think we should restrict the use of the middle name field to naming systems where these have particular significance - or lack of significance. In the common german (European?) convention, the only difference between a 'first' forename and a second, third or fourth is that the most popular position for the main one is at the beginning.
Thoughts? You're talking semantics. It doesn't matter one iota what you call it. Some names go "in the middle" between first name and surname. We call it a "middle name," you call it a "secondary first name." Words mean things, and regardless of the language, "first" MEANS first. This seems to me to be just another of those little nitpicking gripes because "it's American." I certainly hope that is not the case. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Astrakan: Quote:
It's the same in Sweden as it is in Germany. Emigrating to Canada it's been giving me some headaches, as my "middle" name is my primary name but all my identifications have only my "first" name and my last name. Stupid first/middle name system.
KM No, it isn't. Your "official" name is first name: whatever passes for middle name: Surname. That has nothing to do with the name you use to identify yourself among friends and family. Many cultures have a public name and a private name that is only used among family. Naming conventions vary greatly across cultures and throughout history. One is no more stupid than another, it's just what you grow up with and are familiar with. My first name is the same as my father's, so when I was growing up I was called by my middle name. My family still uses that name, even though I have long since changed to using my first name after I moved away from home the first time. It's all in what you get used to. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 374 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
You're talking semantics. It doesn't matter one iota what you call it. Some names go "in the middle" between first name and surname. We call it a "middle name," you call it a "secondary first name." Words mean things, and regardless of the language, "first" MEANS first. This seems to me to be just another of those little nitpicking gripes because "it's American." I certainly hope that is not the case. Well, maybe it would be semantics if you were not using the middle name for other purposes too like the maiden name of a married woman (Hillary/Rodham/Clinton). So here the American middle name is not identical to a secondary first name in our culture. BTW, this should not be 'nitpicking' although from time to time I feel there is a tendency to see the world with your eyes and your eyes only.  |
|  | Kevin | | Registered March 22, 2001 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 609 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
Well, maybe it would be semantics if you were not using the middle name for other purposes too like the maiden name of a married woman (Hillary/Rodham/Clinton). Well, that's debatable here as well (and has been). I know many married women who use their maiden name as well as married name, but they still have a "middle name." They don't believe their maiden names takes over for their true middle name. It's just some of the people on here who believe that women "give up" their middle names when they get married and use both last names. Anyone for Helena Bonham Carter?  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 1,242 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kevin: Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Well, maybe it would be semantics if you were not using the middle name for other purposes too like the maiden name of a married woman (Hillary/Rodham/Clinton).
Well, that's debatable here as well (and has been).
I know many married women who use their maiden name as well as married name, but they still have a "middle name." They don't believe their maiden names takes over for their true middle name.
It's just some of the people on here who believe that women "give up" their middle names when they get married and use both last names.
Anyone for Helena Bonham Carter? Oooh No not again! Steve |
| | Dan W | | Registered: May 9, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 980 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kevin: Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Well, maybe it would be semantics if you were not using the middle name for other purposes too like the maiden name of a married woman (Hillary/Rodham/Clinton).
Well, that's debatable here as well (and has been).
I know many married women who use their maiden name as well as married name, but they still have a "middle name." They don't believe their maiden names takes over for their true middle name.
It's just some of the people on here who believe that women "give up" their middle names when they get married and use both last names.
Anyone for Helena Bonham Carter? Actually, that argument was over the "default" placing of names when the contributor is uncertain of the name and attaining a reasonably acceptable source/reference for the name information. Once the name is verified, there is no dispute over where it should be placed. | | | | Dan |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | By the way, I noted quite a lot of entries where the surname got filled in the middle name, and the last name is empty (usually several in one profile). Is it allowable to send in contributions to correct this, without providing source data?
I have mostly been using the system by filling in the first "given name" in first name, and all the others given names in "middle name". Usually works quite well for Europeans. However, I also often note entries where the first names are initials only, and they go 50/50 beteen A./B./Doe and A.B.//Doe. What is the rule here?
Antoher confusion is with last names consisting of several parts (if not actually hyphenated). They should not go into the middle name, but for married names this is again 50/50. | | | | Hans | | | | Last edited: by Staid S Barr |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 1,265 |
| | Posted: | | | | We have middle names in the UK, so it's not an 'American concept'.
Although it appears the phrase itself was first used in an American publication. | | | | IVS Registered: January 2, 2002 | | | | Last edited: by Lithurge |
| | Dan W | | Registered: May 9, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 980 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lithurge: Quote:
We have middle names in the UK, so it's not an 'American concept'. I think it's an "Greek" concept. Almost all "Greek" descendants have middle names. Many have more than one middle name. If I'm not mistaken, the "Greeks" have been doing this longer than most countries have been in existence, including the English. | | | | Dan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
You're talking semantics. It doesn't matter one iota what you call it. Some names go "in the middle" between first name and surname. We call it a "middle name," you call it a "secondary first name." Words mean things, and regardless of the language, "first" MEANS first. This seems to me to be just another of those little nitpicking gripes because "it's American." I certainly hope that is not the case.
Well, maybe it would be semantics if you were not using the middle name for other purposes too like the maiden name of a married woman (Hillary/Rodham/Clinton). So here the American middle name is not identical to a secondary first name in our culture.
BTW, this should not be 'nitpicking' although from time to time I feel there is a tendency to see the world with your eyes and your eyes only. Hey, don't blame me for what that goofy b*tch Clinton does. Can't stand the woman. The bottom line though is that an American wrote the program, and even though he has made prodigious effort to accommodate other nationalities, at the end of the day he used language and customs that he was familiar with and that were ingrained in him from life-long use. I don't see "middle name" or the way it is used changing any time soon. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kevin: Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Well, maybe it would be semantics if you were not using the middle name for other purposes too like the maiden name of a married woman (Hillary/Rodham/Clinton).
Well, that's debatable here as well (and has been).
I know many married women who use their maiden name as well as married name, but they still have a "middle name." They don't believe their maiden names takes over for their true middle name.
It's just some of the people on here who believe that women "give up" their middle names when they get married and use both last names.
Anyone for Helena Bonham Carter? A point of order here: it is not that we "believe" women give up their middle name and substitute their unmarried surname when that add their married surname. A great many women do just that, and it is a legal thing as much as a societal convention. My mother is one of them. She didn't throw away her given middle name, but her offical name of record on file in the courthouse is "First name/Maiden Surname/Married Surname" as has been that way since 1949. Her choice, by the way. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
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