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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 9 10 11 12 13  Previous   Next
Rules Revision Request
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributor?
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Registered: March 14, 2007
Posts: 3,830
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Quoting smeehrrr:
Quote:
By the way, I think giving negative feedback on a post simply because you don't agree with it violates the spirit of the system.


I have to come back on this, this may have been overlooked from the FAQ:
What's the best way to use the reputation system?
Quote:
Although we encourage users to reward helpful posts, positive feedback can be used for any reason. You can spend all your positive feedback on one person or spread it out among many.

Negative feedback should only be used when warranted. Although this can be subjective, here are some general guidelines:
Posts with name-calling, belittling, or other rude or insensitive comments can be given negative feedback.
Any post that violates the stated forum rules can be given negative feedback.
However, it's not necessary for a post to violate stated forum rules for negative feedback to be considered warranted.
Disagreeing with a user's opinion is not reason to rate their posts negatively.

If you find yourself about to rate a post negative based solely on the poster's identity, take a moment to consider whether the content of the post is detrimental to the community.

Administrators will monitor feedback and will take action where needed. In questionable cases, the feedback may be removed. In cases of gross misuse of the rating system, the rater's reputation may be lowered by the administrator. In repeated cases of gross misuse, the rater's privilege to rate posts may be revoked. Before taking any action against your account, administrators will contact the user via PM, and will give warnings first whenever possible.
Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantCool_doodad
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 404
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Quoting pauls42:
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Quoting tlevel:
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Quoting pauls42:
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Quoting tlevel:
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I also think that they should go back to being guidelines. All the rules that are really needed is something like.

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Take as much information from the DVD and front and rear covers as possible when contributing. Document any source/reason for any changes for everything else.

How much simplier can it get.

The other things that Ken already has in place will take care of any radical behaviour with the data.


the problem is when you get almost the same information multiple places - and as soon as that happens everybodies opinion would be different and there would be ping ponging of profiles  as person A thought the title should be this and person B took it from an alternative location and changed it.

Ultimate flexibility would lead to ultimate chaos. And to a database which was constantly changing with the value of the data plunging.


So, to you then, voting, locking and Geri wouldn't do anything to stop that and Ken should just take them away? Did you even read my last statement?


I read everything you said. But I rejected it.

1) There are still entries which arrive which I have never seen to vote on. And I look every day.
2) Locking - there are problems with this - how can you ever be sure that the dvd profile is complete and can be locked?
3) Geri doesn't check every profile submission herself. But I'm sure she is pleased to be thought of as being super human and able to do this. (The reality is that there is a team of screener s).

And your last sentence implied that you believe that rating a submission with a up or down arrow was a valid way of voting on a submission. It isn't. I suggest you re-read the guidelines that Ken gave about the valid use of these arrows.


Quoting Geri:
Quote:
As the person who sees 99% of the contributions around here, I can say for a fact that the majority of contributors realize and do submit partial contributions.


1) I have no idea what you are talking about, sorry.
2) You don't have to lock the entire DVD online, just the problem sections where you think people are ping-ponging the data.
3) Well, what can I say. That 1% that she doesn't look at must be where all the problems come from.

BTW, I wasn't talking about the reputation system voting, I was talking about the contribution system voting.
The Other DVD Forum
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,198
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Here is the point some of you seem to be missing.  Gerri does not own every single title out there.  She counts on the voters to help her decide what is and isn't a good contribution.  The rules provide a subjective measuring stick for the voters.  Without that measuring stick, voters would be able to vote personal preference.  How would that help Gerri in making a decision?

Do we have people here who interpret different rules differently?  Yes we do, but that is why comments are required for 'no' votes.  So that Gerri can see what a persons take on a particular rule is.  If she doesn't agree, she can disregard that vote.  In extreme cases, when the issue is brought up in the forums, she and Ken can step in and clarify the rule.

Is the current system perfect?  No, but it is better that what we had and I see no reason to scrap it.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,310
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I agree 100% with Unicus!
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantsmeehrrr
Registered: March 26, 2007
Posts: 196
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Quoting pauls42:
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I agree. But why encourage it? And at least if they are given the name of 'rules' then these can be given as a reason for rejecting a submission. If you leave them as guidelines then you could end up with finger pointing from both sides with neither accepting the 'opinion' of the other.

No one is obligated to provide any reason for rejecting a submission.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributor?
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Registered: March 14, 2007
Posts: 3,830
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Quoting smeehrrr:
Quote:
No one is obligated to provide any reason for rejecting a submission.

Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantCool_doodad
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 404
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Quoting pauls42:
Quote:
I agree. But why encourage it? And at least if they are given the name of 'rules' then these can be given as a reason for rejecting a submission. If you leave them as guidelines then you could end up with finger pointing from both sides with neither accepting the 'opinion' of the other.


How does that differ from now? Line break hyphen anyone?
The Other DVD Forum
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,198
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Quoting tlevel:
Quote:
Quoting pauls42:
Quote:
I agree. But why encourage it? And at least if they are given the name of 'rules' then these can be given as a reason for rejecting a submission. If you leave them as guidelines then you could end up with finger pointing from both sides with neither accepting the 'opinion' of the other.


How does that differ from now? Line break hyphen anyone?


As I said in my post above, Ken or Gerri can step in an clarify the rule...which Ken did in the case you just mentioned.  When you clarify a rule, it is still a rule.  Guidelines, as some people will tell you, are not rules and don't have to be followed...clarified or not.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBodi
Registered: March 15, 2007
Posts: 445
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Bodi:
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Quoting Unicus69:
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I know this is a little late, but how do you contribute cast lists that are in order of appearance or alphabetical order?


You do it the same way as any other method. As credited in the film and per Invelos rules.


Maybe my question wasn't as clear as I had hoped as I do not understand your answer.  You say you only contribute 'principal actors'.  In a film that has the credits in alphabetical order, the principal actors...lets say there are 5...may be the 5th, 10th, 11th, 14th & 22nd in the list.

Do you skip everyone else and only enter those 5?  I know nothing I say will change the way you are doing it, I am just curious.



Yeah...that is how I would do it...I would only enter those actors I am interested in...the stars/principal actors etc. The Joe Blow's with bit parts I am not interested in. So if there was 5 out of 25 names and there was nothing in the database I would enter just those 5 names in alphabetical order of course.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantsmeehrrr
Registered: March 26, 2007
Posts: 196
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Quoting Unicus69:
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Is the current system perfect?  No, but it is better that what we had and I see no reason to scrap it.

The primary reason I proposed a terminology change (which isn't even close to "scrapping" anything) was not to change behavior in submissions but rather to change behavior on the forum. Take a quick look around and see how many threads ultimately devolve into "the rules say so, therefore it must be correct", and how many threads consist solely of bickering over the particular wording of a particular rule. 

In reality, those threads don't matter, and the specific wording of any rule doesn't matter - what matters is whether or not your submission gets accepted, and that isn't necessarily predicated on following any given rule to the letter. Which is why I suggested either changing the name or adding a preamble to the rules that speaks to intent.

Here's the deal: We will never have a set of rules that covers every scenario, and, to take it even farther, we will never have a set of rules that perfectly expresses the will and desires of the screeners.  I am in favor of making changes that will help people recognize this, and recognize the futility of the kind of discussions that are so prevalent here.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,198
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Quoting Bodi:
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Yeah...that is how I would do it...I would only enter those actors I am interested in...the stars/principal actors etc. The Joe Blow's with bit parts I am not interested in. So if there was 5 out of 25 names and there was nothing in the database I would enter just those 5 names in alphabetical order of course.


Fair enough.  As I said, I was just curious, thanks for the answer.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantCool_doodad
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 404
Posted:
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting tlevel:
Quote:
Quoting pauls42:
Quote:
I agree. But why encourage it? And at least if they are given the name of 'rules' then these can be given as a reason for rejecting a submission. If you leave them as guidelines then you could end up with finger pointing from both sides with neither accepting the 'opinion' of the other.


How does that differ from now? Line break hyphen anyone?


As I said in my post above, Ken or Gerri can step in an clarify the rule...which Ken did in the case you just mentioned.  When you clarify a rule, it is still a rule.  Guidelines, as some people will tell you, are not rules and don't have to be followed...clarified or not.


You must have forgot about the group of people who would then start the arguement that until they are stated in the rules, what Ken says in the forum doesn't count.

(I'm not saying they right, btw) So your point about keeping them as rules doesn't solve anything.
The Other DVD Forum
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantsmeehrrr
Registered: March 26, 2007
Posts: 196
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Quoting Giga Wizard:
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Quoting smeehrrr:
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No one is obligated to provide any reason for rejecting a submission.


That's not a rejection, that's a vote.  Only a screener can reject a submission, and they don't have to tell you why.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantsmeehrrr
Registered: March 26, 2007
Posts: 196
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
As I said in my post above, Ken or Gerri can step in an clarify the rule...which Ken did in the case you just mentioned.  When you clarify a rule, it is still a rule.  Guidelines, as some people will tell you, are not rules and don't have to be followed...clarified or not.

The rules don't have to be followed either.  Should I provide examples of submissions that ahve been accepted that clearly violate the rules as written?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,198
Posted:
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Quoting smeehrrr:
Quote:

The primary reason I proposed a terminology change (which isn't even close to "scrapping" anything) was not to change behavior in submissions but rather to change behavior on the forum. Take a quick look around and see how many threads ultimately devolve into "the rules say so, therefore it must be correct", and how many threads consist solely of bickering over the particular wording of a particular rule. 

In reality, those threads don't matter, and the specific wording of any rule doesn't matter - what matters is whether or not your submission gets accepted, and that isn't necessarily predicated on following any given rule to the letter. Which is why I suggested either changing the name or adding a preamble to the rules that speaks to intent.

Here's the deal: We will never have a set of rules that covers every scenario, and, to take it even farther, we will never have a set of rules that perfectly expresses the will and desires of the screeners.  I am in favor of making changes that will help people recognize this, and recognize the futility of the kind of discussions that are so prevalent here.


Changing the terminology will not change behavior on the forum.  History tells me that it will make it worse.  While the rules aren't perfect, most areas are fairly straight forward.  If you change them to 'guidelines', as we had in the past, every rule is open for debate as is the question of whether or not you have to follow them.

As I said before, the rules aren't perfect, but they do give us a way of measuring the quality of a submission.  Something guidelines never did.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,198
Posted:
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Quoting smeehrrr:
Quote:

That's not a rejection, that's a vote.  Only a screener can reject a submission, and they don't have to tell you why.


No, she doesn't have to...but she does.  And, in each case that I have seen, the 'reason why' refers the person back to the rules.  That tells me that Gerri wants people to look at the rules and follow them.

Quote:
The rules don't have to be followed either.  Should I provide examples of submissions that ahve been accepted that clearly violate the rules as written?


Are you 100% accurate in your job?  Do you never, ever, make a mistake?  The fact that profiles, that violate the rules, get accepted is not proof that the rules don't have to be followed.  It is simply proof that Gerri is human and, like the rest of us, makes mistakes.  She has even admitted as much in these forums.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
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