Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
While the first rule [sic] has a requirement that "the crew meets the other listing requirements," the first rule does not.  Since the first rule is specific to company headers, I believe that trumps the more generic 'crew team' rule.

With your guidance there is nothing stopping us from entering every company credited with work on the film as long as there are employee names listed beneath them.

Normally we would be constrained by the crew credit table, but that only applies to individuals and not companies.  The only requirement for a company header (in your clarification) is that crew names be listed beneath.  Since these crewpersons apparently don't need contributable roles for the company header to be valid, this finally opens the door for caterers, etc. into the database.

---------------

Quoting scotthm:

Quote:
With your guidance there is nothing stopping us from entering every company credited with work on the film as long as there are employee names listed beneath them.

I offered no guidance, only my opinion.

Quote:
Normally we would be constrained by the crew credit table, but that only applies to individuals and not companies.  The only requirement for a company header (in your clarification) is that crew names be listed beneath.  Since these crewpersons apparently don't need contributable roles for the company header to be valid, this finally opens the door for caterers, etc. into the database.

Argumentum ad absurdum.  Assuming the catering company is credited, what credit would you give the people listed?  With Visual Effects by ABC, you know they did visual effects, which is a valid crew credit.  With Catering by ABC, you know they did catering, which is not a valid crew credit.

Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
There are two rules for Group Dividers.  One deals with company names, and the other deals with 'crew teams'.

Rule for company names:

Quote:
List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.

Rule for 'crew teams':

Quote:
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.

While the first rule has a requirement that "the crew meets the other listing requirements," the first rule does not.  Since the first rule is specific to company headers, I believe that trumps the more generic 'crew team' rule.

As always, just my opinion.

Unfortunately, you cannot take the rules individually in a vacuum.  The first rule is only an exception.  Basically giving us permission to use company names within dividers, and only if it lists crew under that heading.  It does not tell us what to put in the divider (that is covered by copy exactly), it also does not tell us what crew to include under the divider (that is covered by the general crew credits we follow for every other crew member)

The second one you cite, at least gives us insight to what to include.  Crew that meets any other crew listing requirement.

I like Scooter's example of "chicken or the egg" 

We are allowed to put in a company header as long as the crew underneath meet other listing requirements.  Obviously, under normal circumstances, if the crew underneath has job titles with them, then the divider can be used, if and only if, the job listed is within the crew tables (Visual Effects Supervisor, good Digital artist bad).  If none of the crew meet the job listing requirement, then that divider cannot be used, no matter what the divider says.

If we were to look at it the other way, where we make the decision on crew job based upon company header, then we would be able to list every company and every person under, no matter the job that is actually listed.  To apply consistency, if the VFX by part of the company header propagates to every person below, then the jobs would by default be VFX BY Visual Effect producer John Doe. Since it is VFX by, then it will not matter what actual job is done, it will be able to be included.

Either 1 of 2 but not both options must apply

Either every job underneath the divider gets the propagation of job type from the group divider, or it does not.

Do we look at the job before we decide tho company inclusion, or do we look at the company first thenthe jobs.

Quoting Scooter1836:

Quote:
Although there is nothing that implies that the company header information propagates to the crew roles within it.  Just because the company provided VFX services does not mean every name listed assumes the role of Visual Effects as Invelos perceives it.  Only if they have a role listed can you properly determine if the name is supposed to be credited.  And in the case with crew, no role, means no credit.

Really?  I've seen the following credit:

Make-up by

John Doe
Jane Smith
Joan Watson
Sara Jones

Those do not have roles attached, does that mean they can't be entered?  I certainly hope not as I see them entered all the time with a credit of Make-up Artist.

Assuming those credits are valid, why would the addition of a company name suddenly make them invalid?  If 'Make-up by' is valid, how can 'Make-up by K.N.B. Effects Group' be invalid?

Quote:
The fact is with crew what most follow is "When there is doubt, leave it out", and there is a lot of doubt here.  The people are not credited with a specific role.  Crew (unlike cast) require roles and roles that fall into the crew chart.  And nowhere does it even come close to saying that the contribution of the company to the film implies roles to crew when they are not credited with a role.

There is a lot of doubt for you, that doesn't mean there is a lot of doubt for everybody.  If you have doubt, you are, of course, free to leave it out...just don't expect those without doubt to do the same.

EDIT: this sounds more snarky that I meant it, my apologies for that Scooter. 

Quoting Scooter1836:

Quote:
Thank you for the apology, I saw it before the EDIT.  But refreshed before my reply.  Because it did sound that way so your edit meant a lot.

I really shouldn't respond when I am at work as I tend to get rushed and distracted.  You seem like a good guy and I really didn't mean it to come off that way so, thanks for accepting my apology.  I really was 

Quoting Scooter1836:

Quote:
VFX companies are a completely different animal.  They are fully separate entities that have a myriad of crew.  Producers, directors, cinematographers, transportation and a myriad of VFX roles that we do not credit, you have seen whatthese can contain. 

So yes within a separate VFX company there is a a lot of doubt when they do not specify the role.

Unfortunately, not everyone has the level of knowledge you seem to have. Nor should they to be able to contribute to this program.

I have said this many time before: the rules should be designed so that people with no knowledge of the film industry can still complete a profile. The moment you start adding 'specialist knowledge' you lose many contributors.

I personally don't care about the differences between the sound crew (for example) - BUT I DO want to know how to enter these into Profiler. I want to be able to do this with only the rules and the disc.
This is a problem with Profiler (and this forum) that has been going for a few years - everyone is now expected to be an expert on all the crew roles to be able to contribute correctly (according to the vocal forum members).
Well, I'm sorry, that's rubbish.

I will continue to follow the rules as I see them.
If they say to include people credited with 'Visual Effects' then that's what I will include. If the 'Visual Effects' is in a header above the names of the people Or following or preceding the name it will make no difference to me.
It's a simple approach; but it's one that's worked for me for many years.

We attempted to write the rules for everyone to understand - and obviously, those of us that were involved, failed at a catastrophic level. The rules are utter rubbish if intelligent people are unable to interpret them in a manner which results in uniform contributions.