Double post

Double post

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
No, Enry Francois if that is how it is displayed On Screen. [...]

Correct, if the screen displays "Francois". But we are discussing the case where it displays "FRANCOIS". Therefore "François" or "Francois" could be correct depending on the credited person.

BTW the en-GB dictionary used in my Firefox marks "Francois" as incorrect an "François" as correct.

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Rho:

You like everubody else, except it would appear Martin have absolutely no clue about what I have said. Instead what I get is talked and whine. I want to do the german Page. We don't have a German page. Because of this we must enter the data in a consistent manner, whether you like it or not. I have even stated that for those who just have to have their culture recognized there IS a way to deal with it.

What i get is talked at and slandered, i suggest you takle a close look at how French titles in my collection are handled. I am not going to talkm about this any further until such time as someone shows some comprehension of what i have said and is willing to discuss instead of talking at.

For Ruben if the characters are recognized by Profiler and that is hoiw they appear ON SCREEN then by all means enter them.

Skip

Nice try but, to quote Ken, that dog won't hunt.  You are the one talking at people.  You are the one who has shown a lack of comprehension...despite having it explained quite a few times.  I would try and explain it again, but it is quite clear that you are not going to listen. 

Well,midnit, know I am not amused at all. i am trying to get people to understand the concept of consistent data. If everybody insists on going off in their own direction then we will never get a quality database, It will always be sabotaged by somebody wanting to do their own thing. This is one of the reasons i have stopped contributing, I simply refuse to play these stupid games. If they don't get it or don't want to get it, it's not my problem. I have tried and instead of trying to discuss, i get talked at and insulted. I am fed up with the nonsense. If someone wants to engage in intelligent discussion, let me know.

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Well,midnit, know I am not amused at all. i am trying to get people to understand the concept of consistent data. If everybody insists on going off in their own direction then we will never get a quality database, It will always be sabotaged by somebody wanting to do their own thing. This is one of the reasons i have stopped contributing, I simply refuse to play these stupid games. If they don't get it or don't want to get it, it's not my problem. I have tried and instead of trying to discuss, i get talked at and insulted. I am fed up with the nonsense. If someone wants to engage in intelligent discussion, let me know.

Skip

I know you are frustrated by being unsuccessful in getting people to accept your concept of consistent data.  However in MY world, accuracy trumps consistency every time.  And it's simply not accurate to enter Francois when François is correct. Just because you THINK that it is correct to show Francois and not François doesn't make it so -- and it doesn't matter how many times you try to say that it does.  It is not trying to impose cultural bias on the universe by attempting to spell a French name AS a French name.

I don't know about your former employers (as I understand you are retired), but my employer expects data I capture to be correct, not merely "consistent."

Okay, I'll bite. I THINK that I understand the situation very well, but Skip thinks that I (and presumably many others) don't 'comprehend'. So, Skip, let's see if you can clear up my misunderstanding.

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Fact 1:: FRANCOIS needs to be transformed to lower case or it is in breach of the contribution rules.

Fact 2: The English (American) language contains 52 characters if you count both upper and lower letters (one lower-case character for each upper-case character in a one-to-one relationship). These are the only actively used characters in the modern language.

Fact 3: The French language (and many other common languages) contains 52 + a whole bunch more (26 letters from the Latin alphabet, plus various diacritics and ligatures which do NOT necessarily have one-to-one relationships between capital and lower case characters). In excess of 60 characters are actively used in the modern French language.

Fact 4: In pure English (American), FRANCOIS is transformed to Francois.

Fact 5: In French (and other languages), FRANCOIS can be transformed into either Francois or François, but the commonly accepted transformation would be François.

Fact 6: The rules make no statement in any section for any purpose (related to credits or otherwise) about what character set should be used within the program, although only UTF-8 compatible character sets can be used due to technical limitations (note that both the French and English (American) character sets are included within UTF-8).

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Subjective arguments (i.e. not facts, but not necessarily without merit)  discounted from my conclusion:

Argument 1: We should only enter what is on screen. Discounted because the rules tell us that we cannot enter something in full capitals ("standard capitalization rules apply"), therefore some interpretation is required by the rules and not to interpret would be a breach of the rules.

Argument 2: FRANCOIS transforms only to Francois. Discounted because this is only true when specific cultural rules are applied (most notable modern English or American English).

Argument 3: FRANCOIS transforms to François. Although it is a valid option in French and experience tells us that this is the correct transformation to apply to be consistent with the French language, there is no rule (from Invelos or within the French language) saying that it MUST be this.

Argument 4: 'Standard capitalization' applies. All this says is that FRANCOIS is incorrect - it say nothing about the correctness of either Francois or François.

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My personal conclusions are as follows:

Conclusion 1: There is nothing within the rules saying that we should transform FRANCOIS to Francois, but there is nothing saying not to transform it to François either. Therefore, it is not possible to say that either one is incorrect according to the rules and the choice of EITHER ONE must be considered a preference based upon external factors unrelated to the rules (e.g. external evidence or personal preference).

Conclusion 2: My personal preference would be for François, as it is the 'most correct' international transformation for FRANCOIS. Francois would be applying a very English cultural preference.

Conclusion 3: This is not worthy of umpteen pages of discussion! The scenario must affect the merest handful of titles, and it only affects the credited name anyway. So long as it can be linked correctly, who gives a flying hoot? Just do a  majority view wins and get on with it!

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Okay, Skip, can you point out where my comprehension lets me down, either referencing the numbered points above or adding something that I've missed?

Thanks

Stuart

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
You are missing several points, Darius.

1) We cannot have everybody following their own "page", the database is not isolated, it is one big Db, what you do affects everything and evryone.

Exactly, so why should we do everything the US way if it affects everyone?

Quote:

2) Not every user has knowledge of the various international conventions, so you enter it as you see it period.

Exactly, so why are you assuming that the French know that we sometimes write it as Francois?

The point is, to repeat it again as you obviously don't get it, each country has it's own standard capitalisation rules. In order to be on the same "page" we have to follow the same rules. At the moment we don't.