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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2  Previous   Next
Intertitles in silent films
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
Registered: December 10, 2007
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Is it appropriate to list the intertitle language of silent film in the subtitles section of a profile on the theory that it's a kind of burned-in subtitle, which we do normally list?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
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I lean toward yes, because otherwise, if, for instance, you have a movie with English intertiltles and optional French and Spanish subtitles, the profile would give make it appear the disc isn't English-friendly when it is.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
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IMHO such titles should not be listed at all, while the subtitles should.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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Don't think we should list kind of forced (sub)titles.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributoriPatsa
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Only if the intertitles are subtitled.
Patrik
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
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Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
Don't think we should list kind of forced (sub)titles.


Not sure why not. Interititles are basically a kind of forced subtitle and from I can see of the DB, those are pretty much always listed. They were common in the early days of DVD when we were getting a lot of laserdisc transfers.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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... if we include forced subtitles, what to do with inserts like: North Korea, two years ago, the intros explaining the story (like the ones the Star Wars imperium got famous for) or the summaries at the end of some films based on real incidents: ... and they lived happily until they died in 2010 after a long severe suffering... 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
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Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
... if we include forced subtitles, what to do with inserts like: North Korea, two years ago, the intros explaining the story (like the ones the Star Wars imperium got famous for) or the summaries at the end of some films based on real incidents: ... and they lived happily until they died in 2010 after a long severe suffering... 


That's quite different than subtitles for the whole film, which is something meaningful to track for accessibility. I have some titles with Japanese audio and burned-in English subtitles. If you don't track those subtitles, then it looks like the program isn't accessible to English-speakers. I would think intertitles are akin to that as they contain all of the dialogue for the movie.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorLeiterfluid
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Registered: March 16, 2007
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By definition, intertitles are not subtitles.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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Quoting Leiterfluid:
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By definition, intertitles are not subtitles.

The task is not to define intertitles, but to decide, if we want to handle them like subtitles.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
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Quoting AiAustria:
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The task is not to define intertitles, but to decide, if we want to handle them like subtitles.


Right. My position is they should be, because they serve the same purpose. I.e. they contain all the dialogue for the movie so viewers can read it. A majority of voters don't want to treat them the same, but no one seems to be saying why not for some reason.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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I've tried to explain it. But obviously I was not able to make a clear statement... Maybe because I don't have a clear mind on this: for me it's more a feeling than hard facts: subtitles translate (or transcribe) the dialog. The charm of a silent film is the silence: they don't need full dialog... from my point of view the intertitles are more description than dialog - the comparison to forced subtitles and descriptions in modern films, was the nearest I could get to explain how I see them...
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantDraxen
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
Quote:
My position is they should be, because they serve the same purpose. I.e. they contain all the dialogue for the movie so viewers can read it. A majority of voters don't want to treat them the same, but no one seems to be saying why not for some reason.


(Bold by me) They certainly don't normally contain "all the dialogue", if we are talking about people shown speaking in a silent movie. In my experience most of such footage is not accompanied with any intertitles and many intertitles contain something completely different, such as explanations of forward cuts or location changes (e.g. "The following evening..." or "Meanwhile on the street..." etc.)

Intertitles are much more varied in content, not at all limited to dialogue, and they typically cover a very limited portion of visible dialogue in a silent movie, and that's why I voted no. I think it would be good information to track in DVDP, but IMHO I don't think they should by handled as subtitles.
Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez)
 Last edited: by Draxen
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
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Regular subtitles contain other info, too. If someone's mouth moves, but the audience doesn't know what they are saying, that's not dialogue.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantDraxen
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Well, often in silent movies we have principal characters in a scene seen speaking, but intertitles are not used to explain what is said. Subtitles, as most understand them, would definitely have been used for such scene in a sound movie.

Subtitles is the textual representation of any audible dialogue (and sometimes other sounds such as "Doorbell rings" or "Soft piano music playing" etc.) heard in a movie. They describe what is said/heard, no more.

Intertitles on the other hand, in silent movies, are not designed to be a representation of what is said/heard (naturally...). They are sometimes used to describe what characters are saying on screen that is similar to subtitles, but very often used for other type of information explaining cuts ("Later..." / "Meanwhile on the street..."), or e.g. introducing characters seen first time on screen ("John, her father") and so on. Subtitles are never used in this way.

To me subtitles and intertitles are too different in their purpose and information they contain, for them to be handled as one and the same thing in DVDP.
Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez)
 Last edited: by Draxen
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
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I agree with Draxen.
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