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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Wardrobe Direction?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting Nosferatu:
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In the case of All About Eve, that would deprive Edith Head of her credit in a film for which she won an Oscar.

Unless I missunderstand what Danae wrote, it would  deprive Charles LeMaire of his credit.

Yes, which is still not what we would want.  And this is not an unusual case.  I have many films with similar credits.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNosferatu
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting Nosferatu:
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In the case of All About Eve, that would deprive Edith Head of her credit in a film for which she won an Oscar.

Unless I missunderstand what Danae wrote, it would  deprive Charles LeMaire of his credit.

Yes, you're right. As Edith Head is listed as a costume designer, Charles LeMaire wouldn't be included in the credits.

As they both won Academy Awards for the same thing on the film, excluding one of them from the database would be ridiculous.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMikaLove
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Quoting GSyren:
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This thread raises an interesting question. Do we include people for what we know they did, or for how they are credited?

If we would vote, I would vote for "credit people for what we know they did".
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDanae Cassandra
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting Nosferatu:
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In the case of All About Eve, that would deprive Edith Head of her credit in a film for which she won an Oscar.

Unless I missunderstand what Danae wrote, it would  deprive Charles LeMaire of his credit.

Would it?  The credits that are shown do not list someone as "Costume Designer."  The credits say "Costumes for Miss Bette Davis designed by Edith Head" = this equals specific costumes for a single actress.  Unless there is another general "Costume Designer" credit somewhere in those credits, that would give LeMaire that credit for wardrobe. 

In other words, we could tweak my phrasing to exclude credits for specific costuming (like Gowns or costumes for specific actors credits) when considering whether "Wardrobe" gets a Costume Designer credit.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNosferatu
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Quoting Danae Cassandra:
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting Nosferatu:
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In the case of All About Eve, that would deprive Edith Head of her credit in a film for which she won an Oscar.

Unless I missunderstand what Danae wrote, it would  deprive Charles LeMaire of his credit.

Would it?  The credits that are shown do not list someone as "Costume Designer."  The credits say "Costumes for Miss Bette Davis designed by Edith Head" = this equals specific costumes for a single actress.  Unless there is another general "Costume Designer" credit somewhere in those credits, that would give LeMaire that credit for wardrobe. 

In other words, we could tweak my phrasing to exclude credits for specific costuming (like Gowns or costumes for specific actors credits) when considering whether "Wardrobe" gets a Costume Designer credit.

If Ms Head designed costumes for Bette Davis, wasn't she a costume designer? 
Quoting MikaLove:
Quote:
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
This thread raises an interesting question. Do we include people for what we know they did, or for how they are credited?

If we would vote, I would vote for "credit people for what we know they did".

Agreed
 Last edited: by Nosferatu
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDanae Cassandra
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Quoting Nosferatu:
If Ms Head designed costumes for Bette Davis, wasn't she a costume designer? 


It almost seems like you're deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying.  Yes, she is a costume designer.  However her credit does not read "Costume Designer" it reads "Costumes for Miss Bette Davis designed by."  Yes, that makes her a costume designer.  But it does not mean she was the costume designer for the whole film, it means she was the costume designer for Bette Davis.  Therefore, with no credit that reads simply "Costume Designer/Costumes Designed by" that encompasses the whole film, the way I would like to word things would give the credit to LeMaire.

Quote:

Quoting MikaLove:
If we would vote, I would vote for "credit people for what we know they did".

Agreed.  Which is why I would like a rule that says if there is a Costume Designer credited, do not add a Wardrobe credit.  Because that ends up inevitably crediting someone whose job was to wrangle the costumes, rather than design them.  With such a rule, we could include something that would read "Do not consider credits for gowns, or costumes for individual actors/characters when determining whether to include a Wardrobe credit."
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield
 Last edited: by Danae Cassandra
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMikaLove
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Quoting Danae Cassandra:
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Agreed.  Which is why I would like a rule that says if there is a Costume Designer credited, do not add a Wardrobe credit.  Because that ends up inevitably crediting someone whose job was to wrangle the costumes, rather than design them.  With such a rule, we could include something that would read "Do not consider credits for gowns, or costumes for individual actors/characters when determining whether to include a Wardrobe credit."

I'm not sure we agree, since we don't seem to think alike.

Edith Head is in the above example credited as a Costume Designer, even if the credits don't read verbatim. Thusly, as argued as well, Charles LeMaire would not be entitled a credit, because he's "just" a Wardrobe Director, according to this argument.
That's not credit for what we know they did, but credit rigidly according to made up rules.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDanae Cassandra
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I guess you still didn't understand what I posted.  So, I'll try to rephrase what I would like to see.  Looking at the credit chart, I realize that the usual roles that are at issue (the person in charge of the costumes rather than the person designing them) are only partly Wardrobe, so I'll phrase accordingly.

Section: Art
Role: Costume Designer
Credited As: Costumes [by], Costume Supervisor, Gowns [by], Wardrobe [by], Wardrobe Designer, Wardrobe Supervisor, Wardrobe Director
Incorrect Roles: (blank)
Notes:  Only use a Supervisor or Director credit when there is no Designer credit.  If a credit exists for Gowns, or costumes for a single actor or character, ignore that credit when determining whether to use a Supervisor or Director credit.

I do think we want the same thing.  I want to credit the designer.  I want to not have the person who's in charge of keeping track of the costumes credited. 

All this is moot anyway.  There is no way to change the rules, because there is no Ken, and every time I've brought up that we take over the rules and run them by consensus, it has been shot down.  I don't know why we're even discussing it, since all we are doing is tilting at windmills.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMikaLove
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Quoting Danae Cassandra:
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I guess you still didn't understand what I posted.  So, I'll try to rephrase what I would like to see.  Looking at the credit chart, I realize that the usual roles that are at issue (the person in charge of the costumes rather than the person designing them) are only partly Wardrobe, so I'll phrase accordingly.

Section: Art
Role: Costume Designer
Credited As: Costumes [by], Costume Supervisor, Gowns [by], Wardrobe [by], Wardrobe Designer, Wardrobe Supervisor, Wardrobe Director
Incorrect Roles: (blank)
Notes:  Only use a Supervisor or Director credit when there is no Designer credit.  If a credit exists for Gowns, or costumes for a single actor or character, ignore that credit when determining whether to use a Supervisor or Director credit.

I do think we want the same thing.  I want to credit the designer.  I want to not have the person who's in charge of keeping track of the costumes credited. 

All this is moot anyway.  There is no way to change the rules, because there is no Ken, and every time I've brought up that we take over the rules and run them by consensus, it has been shot down.  I don't know why we're even discussing it, since all we are doing is tilting at windmills.


"Still"?
If you want to remove the credit for Charles LeMaire, then we do not want the same thing even remotely.
IMO the only way to make this DB and site work is if we come to an agreement that the community majority is what matters most.
Things change, but the rules page won't, since there's no one officially in charge. So then we take the rudder.
Let's make a democracy. Screw the rest.
And stop talking about Ken. He barely deserves a mention, if you ask me, and if I can be very straightforward.

EDIT:
As I posted this, I see that the voting has shifted, to something I would not agree with, regardless of majority.
I wonder how that is possible, since we already established that Charles LeMaire received an award for his job as a Costume Designer.
Maybe I'm naive to think this site could work after all...
 Last edited: by MikaLove
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
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Quoting ninso4:
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I started this thread because I was not really sure about this credit. I think you can find good arguments for both options and both views are also compatible with the rules with some interpretation.
The fact that Charles LeMaire got Oscar nominations or wins for a few of his credits was not even known at that time, at least not to me.

For the common Name thread I had to decide in some direction. Since there was a clear majority for an invalid credit at that time, I marked these entries as invalid.
Now, of course, we have new information and I think this should be taken into account. It seems that many people here have changed their opinion and the majority is now in favor of a valid credit.
To come back to the original credit:
Wardrobe Director is not listed under the crew roles in the contribution rules. This speaks against a valid credit.
One could argue that a Director falls under the part of the rules that deals with "supervising" credits. Although I would not subscribe to that 100%.

Sometimes Charles LeMaire was also listed as Executive Wardrobe Designer, which I listed as valid. Because at least the title of the designer is present here, which is valid in any case.

In favor of a valid entry is that his films are older films, where the crew entries are nowhere near as formalized as is usually the case with newer films. I think everyone who enters older films into the database knows that it sometimes takes some imagination to enter the crew entries correctly. The rules are based on modern job descriptions. For older and non-English speaking movies, the descriptions usually don't match completely and have to be adjusted to encompass the meaning of the crew roles.
By that logic, I think one can argue for Wardrobe Director as a valid credit.

Charles LeMaire is the only person I've come across with such a credit so far. It seems to be a specific role created just for him. Until now, I had not interpreted this role as having really had anything to do with the costume design of the individual films. But rather as if he had more of a general role.
But since he even got Oscars for this role, it seems like he did work directly on the films after all. In this case I would not reject an entry in the database as a costume designer. What is good enough for the Academy should be good enough for the Invelos database.

I will have a look at the common name thread soon and take this discussion into account when updating the thread next time.

Of course, the best outcome would be an authority that makes a decision on such issues. But that's not going to happen, unfortunately.


You have hit the nail on the head, thank you for your accurate appraisal and summary.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
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Found this online -


Costume Director job description

The individual responsible for the planning, development, budgeting and control of all costume and wardrobe areas for a specific theatrical organization.

Responsibilities
Oversees the completion of all costume elements of a production to the Theatre's and Costume Designer's satisfaction.
Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: Workroom, Crafts, Dye Shop, Wardrobe, Wig Shop, and Costume Storage.
Determines, interviews and hires staff for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Determines the yearly budgetary needs for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Manages budgets for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Advises and oversees the season schedule for the costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: designer due dates, designer residency, costume staff work dates, wardrobe staff schedule.
Determines and maintains a costume production quality of the highest standard.
Analyzes scripts and creates costume plots.
Participates in the long range planning for the theatre.
Performs other duties as assigned by the Production Manager or Artistic Director.
 Last edited: by ateo357
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quoting areo357:
Quote:
Responsibilities
Oversees the completion of all costume elements of a production to the Theatre's and Costume Designer's satisfaction.
Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: Workroom, Crafts, Dye Shop, Wardrobe, Wig Shop, and Costume Storage.
Determines, interviews and hires staff for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Determines the yearly budgetary needs for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Manages budgets for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Advises and oversees the season schedule for the costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: designer due dates, designer residency, costume staff work dates, wardrobe staff schedule.
Determines and maintains a costume production quality of the highest standard.
Analyzes scripts and creates costume plots.
Participates in the long range planning for the theatre.
Performs other duties as assigned by the Production Manager or Artistic Director.

That description does not seem to include any actual designing, except possibly the last point. Not sure if that matters here.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMikaLove
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting areo357:
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Responsibilities
Oversees the completion of all costume elements of a production to the Theatre's and Costume Designer's satisfaction.
Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: Workroom, Crafts, Dye Shop, Wardrobe, Wig Shop, and Costume Storage.
Determines, interviews and hires staff for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Determines the yearly budgetary needs for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Manages budgets for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Advises and oversees the season schedule for the costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: designer due dates, designer residency, costume staff work dates, wardrobe staff schedule.
Determines and maintains a costume production quality of the highest standard.
Analyzes scripts and creates costume plots.
Participates in the long range planning for the theatre.
Performs other duties as assigned by the Production Manager or Artistic Director.

That description does not seem to include any actual designing, except possibly the last point. Not sure if that matters here.

Yeah.
While it was an interesting read, it is apparent that this doesn't apply in this case for rather obvious reasons. Might there also be a difference between Costume Director vs a Wardrobe Director?
I don't think there's any room for speculation, but what I'm assuming those in favor of including Wardrobe Director are suggesting, is that we can back up with facts and documentation, in all instances where it's brought up and/or where there's any uncertainties.
In general, I think we should stick with the general crediting, but as we're seeing, there are absolute exceptions where we quite literally have to treat things differently.
Omitting crew because the credits are not verbatim with the Invelos rules is too rigid an approach.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDanae Cassandra
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Quoting MikaLove:
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"Still"?
If you want to remove the credit for Charles LeMaire, then we do not want the same thing even remotely.

Yes, still.  Am I missing credits somewhere?  Because if the credits shown are the only costume credits, then I do not want to remove LeMaire from being credited as costume designer.  I would want to craft a rule where someone like LeMaire would get credited, but someone whose job as described by ateo357 would not.

My proposition:  "Only use a Supervisor or Director credit when there is no Designer credit.  If a credit exists for Gowns, or costumes for a single actor or character, ignore that credit when determining whether to use a Supervisor or Director credit."

Applying that to the credits shown above, we have two costume credits:  one for "Wardrobe Direction", one for "Costumes for Miss Bette Davis designed by."  We credit Edith Head for the second.  Under what I would propose, we do not consider that credit when looking at other Costume or Wardrobe credits ("If a credit exists ... for a single actor or character, ignore").  There is no other credit for Costume Designer, therefore we list LeMaire for Costume Design.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield
 Last edited: by Danae Cassandra
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
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And I for one STILL agree with Danea Cassandra that for online database we cannot change what we do. The online MUST follow the rule till that is somehow changed by invelos. do it as you please locally. Do anyway other then per the rules and I don't see how you can stop the no votes.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting areo357:
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Responsibilities
Oversees the completion of all costume elements of a production to the Theatre's and Costume Designer's satisfaction.
Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: Workroom, Crafts, Dye Shop, Wardrobe, Wig Shop, and Costume Storage.
Determines, interviews and hires staff for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Determines the yearly budgetary needs for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Manages budgets for all costume/wardrobe areas.
Advises and oversees the season schedule for the costume/wardrobe areas including, but not limited to: designer due dates, designer residency, costume staff work dates, wardrobe staff schedule.
Determines and maintains a costume production quality of the highest standard.
Analyzes scripts and creates costume plots.
Participates in the long range planning for the theatre.
Performs other duties as assigned by the Production Manager or Artistic Director.

That description does not seem to include any actual designing, except possibly the last point. Not sure if that matters here.

What about the second line "Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas...", how is that different from a Costume Supervisor?
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