Quoting Mithi:

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Quoting Patsa:

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I agree with Jan, for DVD Profiler's purposes they are middle names. Doesn't have anything to do with if they are actually used as legal first names or not, it's just how they are entered in Profiler.

Nope.

The rules clearly state: "Articles (such as de, de la, di, von) are entered in the appropriate name field along with the name that they precede."

cya, Mithi

how about actually reading and trying to understand what someone else wrote before replying next time? I was never talking about articles which you should have noticed, if not by my words than certainly by my examples

Quoting sugarjoe:

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also in German there is no middle name, it could be discussed if the american concept could be used for DVD Profiler purposes, the rules don't say how to parse names.

While we don't have a word for "middle name", I would say that my second first name is just that. It's in my passport, but I have never ever used it otherwise. I don't really see a difference between a second first name and a middle name (especially for DVDP purposes).

I am not sure that expanding the problems we already have with Asian names to other nationalities, which nobody outside that nationality would know. It will break linking left andf right...

Tim:

It causes no confusion. Can you document that it should Phiip//Baker Hall, if you can...fine. If you camn't then don't worry about it. It seems that I am more culturally awarte than many, like Germany has no middle name, and use of Van, etc. However, while I am aware of those issues, I am also aware that someone with Van in his name may or may not be a middle name, and in ordder to determine that you do not apply cultural norms in an way. You have to go out and try to provide documentation, for example a 3rd Generation Dutch immigrant may no longer use Van according to his cultural heritage, this could even be true of someone who is a recent emigre, it is entirely possiblethat he NOW uses Van as a midle name and he may not...we don't know. The easiest answer is simply to start from the default position of First/Middle/Last and to move from that point just provide docuimentation.

Unlike many of you who seem to get all wrapped in either nationalistic or cultural mumbo-jumbo, I see three names and we use three fields, my nationality or culture is irrelevant, it is simply what I see and in the order I see it, and if I can document some other form I will happily provide it to back such a change. Likewise if a user can provide documentation to support such a change I will happily vote in favor of it. You people make this much more difficult than it has to be.

Skip

the problem will not change when you eliminate the middle name. Some people will parse it as Philip Baker/Hall and others as Philip/Baker Hall.

Quoting T!M:

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Quoting likwit:

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the problem will not change when you eliminate the middle name. Some people will parse it as Philip Baker/Hall and others as Philip/Baker Hall.

I thought it would be obvious to most of us that only "Philip" is his first name. But you're right, knowing this bunch that'll probably lead to endless debates as well. My mistake, I'm sorry, let's keep things as they are. In a nutshell: no rules, no standards, and everybody just does it the way he wants... 

Until I heard otherwise from these endless debates, I would have considered it obvious that Hall was his only last name. At least I know now that nothing is obvious (including Philip being his only first name) so the discussion isn't wasted completely - I learned something

Quoting T!M:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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It causes no confusion.

Yes it does! Sure, documentation can be found for a well-known actress like Helena Bonham Carter, but it isn't always that easy. Settling for the "wrong" way to enter this just because proper documentation cannot be found just doesn't seem like the best way to handle things. With the current system, we'll never get anywhere. Take my Philip Baker Hall example: in my collection, he appears in 19 profiles. In the online database, in about half of them, he's listed as Philip//Baker Hall. In the other half as Philip/Baker/Hall. Whichever side I pick, I'll have to try and change the others. Either way I go, I'll end up getting no-votes. Thus: the problem will never be solved. You can go ahead and keep saying: "It causes no confusion", but this really is a major problem. The only way I think of to solve all this in one fell swoop is to eliminate the middle name field.

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The easiest answer is simply to start from the default position of First/Middle/Last and to move from that point just provide docuimentation.

Unfortunately, that "easiest" answer is just something you cooked up by yourself, and is not indicated in any way in the rules. In fact, try to enter a new "three-piece" name in DVD Profiler and click "Add Cast Member", and then you'll see what the default positions are...

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Likewise if a user can provide documentation to support such a change I will happily vote in favor of it.

Yes, I'm sure some of us can remember how happily you voted in favor of the Helena//Bonham Carter change some time ago... 

Tim:

That user was rtying to change things without adequate documentattion, he was basing the change based on HB-C, which may or may NOT have been a correct assumption.

It is only confusing if you can't get past your culture.

Skip

Quoting EnryWiki:

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In my view you shouldn't use "Middle Name" for cast and crew from countries that have no such concept, as that can bring confusion.

I think it brings a lot LESS confusion actually.

Your method means that I have to know what country a person is from and whether that country has a concept of 'middle name'. Simply following the DVDP method means I just take a look at the name  'Blah Thingy Whatsit' and I know Blah is in the first name field, Whatsit is Last name field and anything in the middle (in this case Thingy) is middle name field.
Easy, consistent without outside knowledge and discussion of different countries preferred order of names, acceptance of middle names or anything else.

Quoting Voltaire53:

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Simply following the DVDP method

Unfortunately, there IS no DVDP method. This is not defined in the rules at all, and that's why a fairly big part of the users doesn't work with that method, as this thread shows.

I'd be perfectly willing to use what you've described, as long as it's part of the rules. I would then also prefer that we didn't make any exceptions, like the Helena Bonham Carter example that was referred to earlier. Either we stick to such a basic rule as you propose, or we don't. But not something in the middle, which would result in "correct" parsing of the names of well-known (and thus: easy to document) stars, but mindless parsing for everyone else. Again: to a random user in a random locality it's not that obvious why some of you feel it's Helena//Bonham Carter but Philip/Baker/Hall. If we EVER want to get all users around the world on the same page, then this is something that desperately needs some attention. As I said: currently there are no rules, no standards, and everybody just does it the way he wants...