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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Using 'Credited As' to Regulate Spaces in Names with Initials? |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Staid: I would not favor that at all. I want to give as wide a berth as we can to competing databases and the lack of comma and period is already staked out. @Tim: While agree with you relative to the suffix being formatting question, I know of no sinificance. The initial question is NOT a formatting issue that is a question of data accuracy which we do not have access to resolve in an easy way, unless someone is going to start writing people and saying BTW....  Hardly seems realistic. It's real nice to try and prortray it as a strictly formatting issue, but the fact is it is NOT the same issue as suffixes, I wish it were. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Staid:
I would not favor that at all. I want to give as wide a berth as we can to competing databases and the lack of comma and period is already staked out.
@Tim:
While agree with you relative to the suffix being formatting question, I know of no sinificance. The initial question is NOT a formatting issue that is a question of data accuracy which we do not have access to resolve in an easy way, unless someone is going to start writing people and saying BTW.... Hardly seems realistic. It's real nice to try and prortray it as a strictly formatting issue, but the fact is it is NOT the same issue as suffixes, I wish it were.
Skip I am not proposing to leave out the comma and period, just to standardize on something. I think it would be fine to use ", Jr." all the time, whatever is in the credits (comma, period, capitalised or not). No need to apply "credited as" either. My remark about a tick box was meant as a joke, but just think how much arguing we save about: voice - Voice - (voice) - (Voice) - "voice" - "Voice" - 'voice' - 'Voice' and that just one possible word to describe the function. | | | | Hans |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I hope I am wrong, but it really does appear to me that there are some users who trying to drag us away from accuracy to expediency. I remain exactly where I was 5 years ago when i started on this, database accuracy is based on HARD DATA which appears On SCREEN for the Online, that is a near universal data set for EVERY user in the world. There are some films which appear as though they might use multiplke credit sets dependant on where a film is playing, but these seem to be a tiny minority. From that universal data set, which when the Rules are followed is easy to execute for EVERY user, we coulkd derive an accurate CLT, and users are free to adopt to whatever personal poilicies they want to with the data. But it looks like we have a bunch of users who simply wnat to be able to manipulate the Online, not based on Hard Data, but on guesses, standardizations, assumptions and unsupported opinions.
I have no problem with some of things talked about when executed at the local level, but when we start straying from hard data Online into some other realm...well, (1) many of us have BTDT and it was a disaster, and (2) such products already exist in the marketplace, why not create something BETTER.
I could give you an answer but I won't.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | The period, comma and space punctuation are all used as separators and should all be treated the same way. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
I hope I am wrong, but it really does appear to me that there are some users who trying to drag us away from accuracy to expediency. You're still having a bit of trouble letting go of the old "everything strictly as credited and nothing else"-mode. That was absolutely ridiculous: we might as well have stored a series of JPEGs of the film credits: highly "accurate" but of no use to anyone. The fact that it was absolutely ridiculous is still reflected by the fact that such a large chunk of our data still consists of IMDb-mined stuff: it shows that 90% of the userbase never actually actually bothered with "as credited" but simply imported IMDb-data - Ken brought that upon himself by setting standards that lead to unusable data. If you were serious about maintaining usable cast and crew-data, you simply had to ignore that rule. And to this day it's very obvious that that is what most users did. Now that the focus has shifted - Ken simply had to - you need to let go of the notion that "as credited" is the end of any cast and crew debates. The fact that our database contains separate, non-linking entries for both Robert Downey, Jr. & Robert Downey Jr., and J.K. Simmons & J. K. Simmons makes us the laughing stock of any cast and crew database. I've talked to a lot of people that actually moved away from DVD Profiler as a result of this: if you download profiles for 10 Robert Downey(,) Jr. movies, you're bound to end up with both variants, and no matter which half you're trying to correct, in both cases you're going to get no-votes. Same for the initials/spaces thing. That is ridiculous - again: it's actually driving people away from the program, and it's certainly driving them away from contributing data. These are the very basics of maintaining a cast and crew database - as long as we don't address these issues, we're not getting anywhere. Me wanting to have a standard for dealing with formatting issues like (the lack of) a space or a comma does NOT mean that I want to destroy the database, or that I'm not interested in accuracy. Quite the opposite, actually. If you're serious about maintaining cast and crew data, these entries need to be linked together in an easy way. I'm open to any way in which we can achieve that, even if it means using the "credited as" field to indicate such on-screen variations - as long as we do set a standard for what to enter in the "name" field. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Maybe that is true in your part of the world, martin BUT it is most definitely not true here in the states. With the exception of suffixes, which I agree, it is not true universally with calling someone JK, that becomes personal to that person and we have no way I know of to deal wit it other than As Credited, unless you are offereing to start inquiring of people. I happen to knwo and I am sure you know too, that Louis B. Mayer was called LB by many of associates, now thank god he was never credited as such, but it could have legitimately neen shown on screen as LB, L.B. or L. B. or even differently in various films, therefore NO standardization would do ANYTHING other than negatively impact the accuracy of the database.
But, unless somebody (fingers crossed) presents something that indicates the suffix has some form of unknown relevance...I'll give you that.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
I hope I am wrong, but it really does appear to me that there are some users who trying to drag us away from accuracy to expediency.
You're still having a bit of trouble letting go of the old "everything strictly as credited and nothing else"-mode. That was absolutely ridiculous: we might as well have stored a series of JPEGs of the film credits: highly "accurate" but of no use to anyone. The fact that it was absolutely ridiculous is still reflected by the fact that such a large chunk of our data still consists of IMDb-mined stuff: it shows that 90% of the userbase never actually actually bothered with "as credited" but simply imported IMDb-data - Ken brought that upon himself by setting standards that lead to unusable data. If you were serious about maintaining usable cast and crew-data, you simply had to ignore that rule. And to this day it's very obvious that that is what most users did.
Now that the focus has shifted - Ken simply had to - you need to let go of the notion that "as credited" is the end of any cast and crew debates. The fact that our database contains separate, non-linking entries for both Robert Downey, Jr. & Robert Downey Jr., and J.K. Simmons & J. K. Simmons makes us the laughing stock of any cast and crew database. I've talked to a lot of people that actually moved away from DVD Profiler as a result of this: if you download profiles for 10 Robert Downey(,) Jr. movies, you're bound to end up with both variants, and no matter which half you're trying to correct, in both cases you're going to get no-votes. Same for the initials/spaces thing. That is ridiculous - again: it's actually driving people away from the program, and it's certainly driving them away from contributing data. These are the very basics of maintaining a cast and crew database - as long as we don't address these issues, we're not getting anywhere.
Me wanting to have a standard for dealing with formatting issues like (the lack of) a space or a comma does NOT mean that I want to destroy the database, or that I'm not interested in accuracy. Quite the opposite, actually. If you're serious about maintaining cast and crew data, these entries need to be linked together in an easy way. I'm open to any way in which we can achieve that, even if it means using the "credited as" field to indicate such on-screen variations - as long as we do set a standard for what to enter in the "name" field. Tim: The fact that you don;t understand the whys, wherefores and the objective, is not my problem. Keep the ummmm how to put this....somewhat insulting remarks to yourself. I didn't get past your first two sentences. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Keep the ummmm how to put this....somewhat insulting remarks to yourself. I didn't get past your first two sentences. On the contrary: I tried hard not to make any insulting remarks: I just very desperately want to get results on this particular issue. I was just trying to show where we came from - and I can't help feeling my descriptions of that were pretty accurate. Again, I feel that by not addressing the "separate, non-linking entries for both Robert Downey, Jr. & Robert Downey Jr., and J.K. Simmons & J. K. Simmons" issue, we've forced the users that actually CARE about accurate cast and crew data in keeping their work local. The contributors that are left are the ones that seem more than happy to take the CLT results on face value and have no qualms propagating obviously incorrect IMDb-names. But those that are serious about their cast and crew data mostly have given up, and keep their work local. I find that an alarming trend. You keep accusing me of not wanting accuracy, but the opposite is true. Accuracy, to me and to almost everyone else, is having the database reflect that on-screen credits that say "Robert Downey, Jr." and those that say "Robert Downey Jr." refer to the same person, just as on-screen credits for "J.K. Simmons" and the ones for "J. K. Simmons" refer to the same person. THAT is accuracy to me. As I said before: if that's what Ken or the community wants, I'm more than happy to use the "credited as" field to retain what's REALLY shown on-screen, thereby catering for YOUR version of accuracy as well. That way we can both get what we want, but really: a standard is needed to deal with MY version of accuracy: all these pointless double entries need to be eliminated from the database as soon as possible - rather today than tomorrow. Having separate, non-linking entries for the same people is not "accurate" by anyone's standard. "HARD DATA which appears On SCREEN" does not address this problem: there are credits for both "Robert Downey, Jr." and "Robert Downey Jr.", and for "J.K. Simmons" and "J. K. Simmons". That is the "HARD DATA which appears On SCREEN". It just doesn't link together, and we need to fix that. I can see how setting a few standards could fix this - if you have a better solution handy, I'd love to hear it. Just don't come back with "HARD DATA which appears On SCREEN" again - that's not a solution, it's a pretty exact description of the problem. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Then the accuracy level you are after, Tim is built around supposition, expediency and opinion, NOT hard facts.. The Alias system does need to fixed, desperately and i think Ken could do so quite easily in fact.
But while i am wiulling to grant the formatting question. J.K./J. K. is more than formatting and to say J.K when it is really J.K. or vice versa is simply NOT accurate.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Then the accuracy level you are after, Tim is built around supposition, expediency and opinion, NOT hard facts. So you're saying that me feeling that on-screen credits for "Robert Downey, Jr." and "Robert Downey Jr." refer to the same person, and that on-screen credits for "J.K. Simmons" and "J. K. Simmons" refer to the same person, is nothing more than "supposition, expediency and opinion, NOT hard facts."?! If that is the case, then I'm afraid you haven't just lost me, but most of the community. Again: all this is about is the need to devise a way to link the cast entries that come from those "HARD facts" together. Rather than stating the problem - the "HARD facts" are seen on-screen, we know - we need to find a way to deal with them. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
If that is the case, then I'm afraid you haven't just lost me, but most of the community. Again: all this is about is the need to devise a way to link the cast entries that come from your "HARD facts" - separate, non-linking entries for "J.K. Simmons" and "J. K. Simmons" - together. Rather than stating the problem - the "HARD facts" are seen on-screen, yes, we know - we need to find a way to deal with them. Again, you're stating the problem, not the solution. TIM, do you really think there is a way to make Skip understand another point of view than his: online data =EXACTLY on SCREEN, and the rest LOCAL. If that must make most contributors fly away, it has never been his problem...  | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Now tim, i already granted the suffix issue.  But the the other one, J.K./J. K. is more than formatting, there is actual possible substance involved, that we have little chance of resolving. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
If that is the case, then I'm afraid you haven't just lost me, but most of the community. Again: all this is about is the need to devise a way to link the cast entries that come from your "HARD facts" - separate, non-linking entries for "J.K. Simmons" and "J. K. Simmons" - together. Rather than stating the problem - the "HARD facts" are seen on-screen, yes, we know - we need to find a way to deal with them. Again, you're stating the problem, not the solution.
TIM, do you really think there is a way to make Skip understand another point of view than his: online data =EXACTLY on SCREEN, and the rest LOCAL. If that must make most contributors fly away, it has never been his problem... Surfeur: As I told Tim, when he made a similarly ridiculous comment. That knife is double-edge. Be careful. You are foolish if you believe YOUR way would not drive away users. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
As I told Tim, when he made a similarly ridiculous comment. That knife is double-edge. Be careful. You are foolish if you believe YOUR way would not drive away users.
Skip I've known a time when all the titles I bought were contributed by several users the very day of their release. That is no more the case, some big hits waiting several monthes... I think I already wrote how I analyse that, I shall not do this once again... | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Surfeur: I hate to say this, but for about the last six months MOST of my data has stayed home, there are presently about 150 or 200 titles which have been added to my database and STILL have not been by added anyone in R1, Hmmmm now what does that mean?  PLEASE, surfeur. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | It might just mean the exact same thing... |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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