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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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composer/song writer confusion |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Again: the rules tell us that the "composer" credit is to be "used for the composer of the film's Original Score." So, going back to the original question in the first post of this thread, John Cacavas is the composer (from the opening credits: "Music by John Cacavas"). We're all clear on that, right? I am. Quote:
The only other music/song-related credit is in the end credits, and that says: "Mystery Movie Theme by Mike Post". We can't use "composer", as Mike Post obviously did NOT score the movie together with John Cacavas. I agree. Quote:
So if we want to retain the credit, we can only give him a "song writer" credit. And I'd very much like to keep his credit: Mike Post appears quite a lot throughout my collection, and I'd like the database to show that he contributed a "theme" to this season of 'Columbo'. But if we can't agree on using "song writer", the only other option is to remove him altogether... I do agree that a case can be made to include theme composers as song writers even though I believe they need to be in a third role that we don't currenlty have. I wouldn't vote 'no' against including them as song writers. That's my opinion anyway.  | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,199 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have always thought of a song writer as somone who wrote music AND lyrics. If he only wrote the music, he is a composer. If he only wrote the lyrics, he was a lyricist. But that's just me.
The real problem here is this credit...which is quite important...wasn't considered when writting the rules. The best solution is to ask Ken how hard it would be to create a new crew credit of 'theme song'...or something similar. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
The best solution is to ask Ken how hard it would be to create a new crew credit of 'theme song'...or something similar. I have started a feature request.  | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Unicus and james:
I agree with both of you as I have said. However, as I have also noted is adding Theme the answer. Most times this is simple Star Trek is not Star Trek without A. Courage's theme, similarly with the Pink Panther and Henry Mancini or any of dozens of themes. They are musical compositions written by a composer. However, then we get into The Greatest American Hero by Post and Carpenter, simply calling it theme is not terribly informative, is theme AND theme song the correct answer..to be perfectly honest, I don't know...maybe.
Now as to one of your comments Unicus, remember I never say never, but it is not terribly common to get a clear delineation of who wrote the Music and Who wrote the Lyrics, so in such cases, I have no problem with calling themboth Songwriters and would even extend that to the instances where we do get a clear Music by Richard Rodgers; Lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 951 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't know why everytime we have to make things more complicated than they really need to be. The rules currently do not define the "Credited as" for song writers simply just define what a song writer is.
Original Songs, written specifically for the film
Currently there is nothing in the program when it comes to song writers who rights the words and who writes the music. This is for any song not just theme songs.
Song writter credits can be shown as Written by, Music by, Lyrics by, and even Theme by. Just to name a few. I've even seen credits with Theme Music by Someone, Lyrics by Someone.
The rule also define what a composer is as far as DVD profiler is concerned.
Used for the composer of the film's Original Score
They also define what isn't a composer credit.
Songs by
Song/Music writers
If you guys want Ken to change the program or the rule that only define songs as music that only has words then go for it. There is nothing against the rules because someone making a original song contribution that does not include lyrics. | | | Are you local?
This is a local shop the strangers you would bring would not understand us, our customs, our local ways. | | | | Last edited: by Tracer |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Tracer: Quote:
There is nothing against the rules because someone making a original song contribution that does not include lyrics. I agree with you; however, others don't. This issue pops up from time to time and it can get a bit tense.  If a third credit would bring peace, I'm up for that. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Quoting Tracer:
Quote:
There is nothing against the rules because someone making a original song contribution that does not include lyrics.
I agree with you; however, others don't. This issue pops up from time to time and it can get a bit tense. If a third credit would bring peace, I'm up for that. Here, here. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 813 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Quoting Tracer:
Quote:
There is nothing against the rules because someone making a original song contribution that does not include lyrics.
I agree with you; however, others don't. This issue pops up from time to time and it can get a bit tense. If a third credit would bring peace, I'm up for that. But I don't think it will solve the problem. The "problem" in reality regards all short instrumental pieces - it just happens in this case to be the theme. Just adding a "theme" field solves one subset, but as still leaves a wider group of short instrumental pieces that some people will still argue are composers and we are back to square one.  The change needs to cover all short instrumental pieces - and imo should just be a clarification that they should be entered as song writers. | | | Andy 
"Credited as" Names Database |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Tracer: Quote:
I don't know why everytime we have to make things more complicated than they really need to be. The rules currently do not define the "Credited as" for song writers simply just define what a song writer is.
Original Songs, written specifically for the film
Currently there is nothing in the program when it comes to song writers who rights the words and who writes the music. This is for any song not just theme songs.
Song writter credits can be shown as Written by, Music by, Lyrics by, and even Theme by. Just to name a few. I've even seen credits with Theme Music by Someone, Lyrics by Someone.
The rule also define what a composer is as far as DVD profiler is concerned.
Used for the composer of the film's Original Score
They also define what isn't a composer credit.
Songs by
Song/Music writers
If you guys want Ken to change the program or the rule that only define songs as music that only has words then go for it. There is nothing against the rules because someone making a original song contribution that does not include lyrics. Indeed! Sure, I'd be absolutely fine with a new "theme" credit, but I really don't think it's necessary. Again, I feel that any "theme" written by someone else than the composer of the movie's score can be handled perfectly by using the existing "song writer" credit. All some of you apparently need is a clarification from Ken that it's okay to consider a "theme" as a "song" for DVD Profiler purposes. Nothing more, nothing less. And then we're done. While a feature request is nice, I really don't want to wait and see what may or may not happen in a future version of DVD Profiler. Back to my original post: currently the profile has the theme writer jointly listed as a "composer" together with the person that actually scored the movie. That is incorrect, not even allowed by the rules, and I want to fix that NOW. Currently, that can only be achieved by either remving the credit, or changing it to "song writer". |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Since (at the time of typing this post) 21 people have voted for the option of which we've since established that it's simply not allowed by the rules, the poll options needed changing. So I've started a new thread... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 413 |
| | Posted: | | | | So far 46 people have voted and 23 agree with you (assuming you voted too).
You and 23 others want to bend the rules and credit theme music composer as a Song Writer in DVDP.
Well, 22 other voters want to bend the rules and credit theme music composer as a Composer in DVDP. They must be wrong, so let's vote again. | | | | Last edited: by Jykke |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting jykke: Quote:
So far 46 people have voted and 23 agree with you (assuming you voted too).
You and 23 others want to bend the rules and credit theme music composer as a Song Writer in DVDP. IMHO, there is no rule-bending in what I'm proposing. I understand that some of you may see that differently, but I obviously don't. Again: the "composer" credit is to be used for the person that composed the actual score. Any other original piece of music, a "song", a "theme" or whatever, that is NOT composed by the composer of the score, should be treated with a "song writer" credit. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that prohibits this way of handling things. Quote:
Well, 22 other voters want to bend the rules and credit theme music composer as a Composer in DVDP. They must be wrong, so let's vote again. I just want to make it clear what their choice means. Again: the rules clearly indicate that we can not use a "composer" credit for Mike Post. So the current profile is wrong, however you look at it. If we can't agree that "song writer" is the way to go, Mike Post's credit will have to go, as that is (currently) the only other option. I just wanted to point that out; it seems important to "know what you wish for". Either we'll have to remove all similar "theme" credits, or we come to an agreement on a way to retain them. I know which way I've chosen... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 413 |
| | Posted: | | | | Keywords: Quoting T!M: Quote:
IMHO.. Quote:
...but I obviously don't |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting jykke: Quote:
Keywords:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
IMHO..
Quote:
...but I obviously don't  But as I said: there is absolutely nothing in the rules that prohibits my way of handling this. If there is, please show me. The rules DO clearly indicate, however, that we can't give Mike Post a "composer" credit. So whoever submitted this profile originally - that person bended the rules. I'm only trying to fix that, and if that won't work by changing the credit to "song writer", I'll try to remove Mike Post's credit altogether. My main concern is that he cannot be given a joint "composer" credit together with the person that ACTUALLY scored the movie. I know the rules don't explicitly allow the use of "song writer" for this, but they also don't prohibit it. Therefore you can't possible say that I want to "bend" the rules. I may not agree with the definition of "song" used by some of you, but that definition isn't in the rules. You may call me whatever you want, but I'm certainly not bending any rule. Again: if I am, please show me which rule I'm trying to bend. If you're right, I'll stop doing it, and apologise for my behaviour. Okay?  | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
3. instrumental work in vocal style: an instrumental work written in the style of a composition or the voice, or, in popular music, any musical work
You conveniently skipped right over this part. The farther down the list of definitions it is, the less relevance it has to that definition. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
No it wasn't, Hal, it was an accusation. Like i said there were numerous other possible interpretations, but you chose the most negative and the most inflammatory.
Skip Since I am the one who wrote it, it seems that my own interpretation of what I wrote might carry a slight bit more weight than your paranoid interpretation. Just because you see something there, does not make it so! The whole argument about the Cambridge dictionary definition of what is and isn't a song is totally irrelevant, anyway. The definition of Composer for purposes of DVDP is very clear. It is for the person who wrote the film's score. The person who wrote the theme song, did not write the score, therefore, they do not get a Composer credit. Cut and dry. Whether they should get a "Song Writer" credit is another question altogether. Personally, I think they should, as I do not subscribe to your extremely narrow interpretation of the word "song". Birds sing all the time, yet very few of them actually use words! | | | | Hal |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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