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    Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Is DVDProfiler dead or hibernating?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 2,407
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Quoting movie_madness:
Quote:
DVDP is a *disc-based* catalog instead of a *title-based* catalog like IMDb.

This is only true of the online database, not of our local databases.  I'm happily cataloguing many scores of digital recordings with DVDP right now with no problems at all.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,411
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Quoting movie_madness:
Quote:
I gave up on DVDP longer ago, and now use my own methods to catalog my collection.


Well, I totally understand your point of view. If you (generic) have the skill to obtain exactly what you want, do it yourself.
Unfortunately, in my case I have not, by far, the knowledge to build myself a working system to manage my collection. Is it a problem? Not at all... I'll try to explain it with simple words:

In all what you write you mix two different things:
- the program, dvdprofiler, that is used to run a database. This database can be Invelos one, or can be a local one, totally different, or a mix of Invelos and local data.
- Invelos database created by users who follow Invelos rules

It appears that all what you describe can be done by the program. Some examples:
its database structure is set up to work only for one movie per disc. Not at all: When there is a short movie given as a bonus, it is very easy to create a specific profile
My own database not only does not need duplicate cast and crew entries, but it also downloads cast and crew from IMDb *automatically* via programmed scripts : Ok, but dvdprofiler can do exactly the same with CastCrewEdit plugin.
create a database that stores ALL my movie discs, digital movies, games, DVR recordings, VHS, laserdiscs: Ok, but you can also do this with dvdprofiler : one movie = one profile

In fact, you are unhappy with Invelos database, and I'm at least as unhappy as you and do not use it, the problem not being its structure, but rules that request incorrect data. But the program is great and has not need to be replaced. In fact I think that I'll use it for ever even without new updates, since it can be used locally without any problem nor link with Invelos.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 2,609
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Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
Quoting movie_madness:
Quote:
The prime flaw in DVDP is that its database structure is set up to work only for one movie per disc.


At least that has changed with Alternate Profile IDs.

No, this was only another workaround to cope with a false data base structure. Allowing profiles to have more than one ID does not eliminate the boundaries of the profile based data structure.

In theory it reads: As long, as data is duplicated within a data base, the data base layout is not correct (3rd normal form). ... and theory should be the base of practical products.

The example with the cast and crew is not the only problem in the data base layout, but the most obvious one. I have to agree with movie-madness, that DVDP will never work without friction on base of this data base layout.
List of common name threads - Headshots starting point
 Last edited: by AiAustria
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,411
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Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
Allowing profiles to have more than one ID does not eliminate the boundaries of the profile based data structure.

I do not see the problem. With Alternate profile ID, you get two (or more) different profiles for two (or more) different movies, and each profile has a different ID. And if you don't like Alternate Profile ID, you can just use in local Manual IDs... There is really no problem to differentiate movies and profiles. The problem with the database is to differentiate two people with same name (no rule for unknown BY), and to link a person with two different names when rules create fake variants. But in local no problem.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorDJ Doena
Battle Troll
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Germany Posts: 5,992
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
Allowing profiles to have more than one ID does not eliminate the boundaries of the profile based data structure.

I do not see the problem.


The problem AiAustria is referencing refers to something else. If I understood movie_madness correctly, he has DVDs with more than one feature film and he felt like DVDP could not handle that. By now it can (alternate IDs).

What AiAustria is referencing is the problem that every EAN / UPC of Gladiator has its own set of cast and crew for that movie which are completely independent.

If someone fixes the credits for the American DVD that does not fix the credits for the American Blu-ray, nor the English DVD.

If someone adds a birth year for an actor, it does not populate throughout their movies, it stays in that particular profile, if there's already more than one birth year.


A proper database layout would have an actor list where every actor exists only once - like IMDb does.

Then - since we profile discs and not movies - it would have a title list that allows for multiple credit sets for the same movies, e.g. extended cuts with extended credits or localized role names - here IMDb has the reverse problem. They only have one set of credits and have to clumsily add "japanese version" or something like that to the credit list.

And in the DVD profile, you would simply select the proper movie profile.

This way you would have only one actor Russell Crowe born 1964 and (ideally) only one cast list for Gladiator.

But that should have been done years ago and it has been asked for for years. But for Ken it does not seem to be an important feature.
Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
Amazon Price Observer

 Last edited: by DJ Doena
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 2,609
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Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
What AiAustria is referencing is the problem that every EAN / UPC of Gladiator has its own set of cast and crew for that movie which are completely independent.

Correct. And not only cast and crew; other data is duplicated too, which ends up in studios with different capitalization in different profiles, with profiles of identical discs (same disk ID, same content) showing different audio tracks for different locations, etc.

The TV show issues also show this weak spot: for them the disc profiles are of nearly no importance compared to seasons (main structure for TV shows has to be something like Show-Season-Episode; disc profiles only group together episodes in this case - comparable to box sets, which group films together)...
Quote:
But that should have been done years ago and it has been asked for for years. But for Ken it does not seem to be an important feature.

I don't think he classifies the data base of little importance - at least I hope so - but redesigning the data base from scratch - and that's what we are talking about - is a huge amount of work...
List of common name threads - Headshots starting point
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,083
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
In fact, you are unhappy with Invelos database, and I'm at least as unhappy as you and do not use it, the problem not being its structure, but rules that request incorrect data. But the program is great and has not need to be replaced. In fact I think that I'll use it for ever even without new updates, since it can be used locally without any problem nor link with Invelos.

While I am not as unhappy with the database as Surfeur is, I have to agree that the program is great and you can do, almost, anything you want with it.  I see no reason to chuck the program, with an easy to use interface, simply because one doesn't like the online database structure.
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There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,411
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Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
... But for Ken it does not seem to be an important feature.

I understand all this, and I also think it is not an important feature, as long as we have present rules.
Present rules do not consider actors by themselves, but only actors as a credited name. So if one actor is credited differently in two different movies, we get two different actors in the database.

That means that the actors database is totally useless, and consequently I do not see any importance in any per the rules data concerning cast/crew. Dvdprofiler users should all use your tool, and they all would have the same cast/crew data in all the profiles of the same movie, with actors linking correctly in their different movies.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantmediadogg
Aim high. Ride the wind.
Registered: March 18, 2007
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United States Posts: 4,753
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Does anybody have the skills and desire to create a proper database design? There can be no valid discussion of a solution unless such a thing exists and can be implemented. All the years of carping, complaining, wishes, hopes, and all other emotions can be quashed by that. I wouldn't be surprised if nobody can do it, but if they did, I would certainly use it. If such a thing had been produced years ago, by now, a huge portion of the online in use by members would already be converted - little by little.

So how about it? Some action to replace the hopes, dreams and complaints? 
Thanks for your support.
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 Last edited: by mediadogg
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorDJ Doena
Battle Troll
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 5,992
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Quoting mediadogg:
Quote:
So how about it? Some action to replace the hopes, dreams and complaints? 


Years ago, I made suggestions on how to improve the audio section here.

I also made a new Cast entering demo client here and even made a demo video here.

I also made a demo to show how we could get from the current system to a unique ID system here.

The last link alone is more than six years old.

I got some user feedback but silence from Invelos.
Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
Amazon Price Observer

 Last edited: by DJ Doena
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
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Netherlands Posts: 5,796
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I do not have the necessary skills nor the time to do something like that, but I strongly applaud DJ Doena's past efforts and his and AIAustria's ideas on a proper database structure for the program.

At the same time, I'm not optimistic that we will ever see it happen, as it' would require a huge effort both to develop a new database structure and to convert all accumulated data.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Registered: May 19, 2007
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I surely would be glad to help setting up a new data base design. But as far as my experience around here can tell, Ken/Invelos is not interested in anything like that. Otherwise he could easily divide the constructive guys from the trolls and ask for input...
List of common name threads - Headshots starting point
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantDJViking
Registered: October 19, 2009
Norway Posts: 31
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DVD Profiler does not have sustainable development to warrant frequent updates. Invelos should fork the application into a new release and change updates to a subscription base.

Being a developer myself I am a little tempted to create an open source collection management application for home media (strange to think there is no such FOSS already). Even if its just for fun.
After writing this I had to check if there are any such OSS applications out there:
http://www.antp.be/software/moviecatalog
http://www.junauza.com/2013/01/best-movie-collection-managers-for-linux.html
https://macawmovies.wordpress.com/
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantmediadogg
Aim high. Ride the wind.
Registered: March 18, 2007
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United States Posts: 4,753
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Kudos to the the guys that have been doing technical work. Perhaps DJ's  efforts can be the basis for a community effort. I think the focus should be at the design / conceptual level, rather than implementation, so that anybody can contribute without being a programmer. So the "open source" would be the database design / diagram, whatever - not the coding of any kind of tool. Maybe put t on the wiki?

Anyways, if there were some kind of accepted model or design within this community, then any developer (including Invelos) could make GUI's, clients, tools to suit their taste. But the underlying database structure would be the same, so that (meta)data could eventually be shared as desired.
Thanks for your support.
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 Last edited: by mediadogg
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantmovie_madness
Registered: August 7, 2007
Posts: 69
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Quoting Lowpro:
Quote:
Quoting movie_madness:
Quote:
Quoting Lowpro:
Quote:
DVD Profiler isn't dead or hibernating as far as I'm concerned.  It does a more than respectful job of cataloging my physical DVD and Blu-ray collection and will continue to do so, irrespective of what updates may or may not come in the future.  I also have no interest in digital downloads.  I own 4,193 DVD's and Blu-ray's and have yet to redeem a single digital download.  For those that find value in digital downloads knock yourself out.  Color me not interested.  I have no interest in purchasing and cataloging digital downloads and no interest in discussions about digital downloads quite frankly.

Do you realize a lot of movies are available for online streaming or download only (in HD, to boot) and are not or has never been, or even never will be, on disc, let alone Blu-ray?  If you love old or non-mainstream movies, you must know this.  A lot of those titles are so obscure that disc releases are probably very unlikely.  That is especially true for Blu-ray, since Blu-rays are more expensive to make.  For instance, a ton of Shaw Brothers martial-art flicks have been released in *HD* on iTunes, Amazon, and Youtube.  Good luck waiting for Blu-rays for those titles.  They don't get or may never get Blu-ray releases even in their native Hong Kong.  Among western films, there are several Hitchcock silent films that are available for HD streaming, but no Blu-rays.  Then you have 20th Century Fox that celebrated its 100th anniversary by releasing 100 titles only digitally.  That's just at the top of my head; there are a lot more.  Just sign up Netflix for a month and you will find untold number of films and TV shows in HD streaming but not on Blu-ray and never will be.  I'm not telling you to give up discs, since I still buy lots of discs myself.  But DON'T IGNORE STREAMING just because of some silly personal principles.  Have an open mind and you will only benefit yourself, instead of limiting yourself only to discs, which will only result in you having fewer chances to see certain movies than you would otherwise.

I own over 4,000 DVD's and Blu-ray's.  Do you really think I need enlightened?  Please.  Of course I know there are titles which are only available via digital downloads and/or streaming, many of which may never see the light of day on DVD or Blu-ray.  Even so, there are still more titles available currently on DVD and Blu-ray than I'll ever have the time to watch in my lifetime, not to mention any future DVD and Blu-ray releases, both catalog titles and new releases.  That being said, I'd really suggest you read my words more careful.  Don't ignore streaming because of my silly principles?  Have an open mind and I'll benefit myself?  Really?  What I said was that I have no interest in "purchasing" and cataloging digital downloads.  That type of "collecting" doesn't interest me.  If I miss out on various titles as a result so be it.  Worse case, I'm left with more time to enjoy other things in life.  As for streaming, I never even mentioned streaming.  For the record, I've been a member of Netflix since the service was first debuted, both for physical rentals and then streaming as well once it was offered, my use of streaming strictly limited to content not available for rent or purchase on DVD or Blu-ray.


So you care about movies enough to own 4000 discs, but when you can't download digital movies because of some silly principles, you suddenly say to yourself, I don't care, so be it.  If that is your argument, then you don't have an argument. 

And you still haven't answered why exactly you don't like to download movies. Is it because you don't like the technology, you don't have the Internet bandwidth, and/or you don't trust digital services? 

I'm old-school and buy discs just like all of you, but old dogs need to learn tricks too.  This video shows how older folks handle Netflix.


Quoting Lowpro:
Quote:
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting widescreenforever:
Quote:
... lets face it  overall ., DVD sales are pretty well dead ...

thoughts?

While it's true that disc sales are declining, I wouldn't exactly call $5.4 Billion in sales (2016) a "dead" market.

Exactly.  Oh my.  Physical disc sales are declining.  Only $5,400,000,000 in sales last year.  Hardly even worth the bother.

Sales have been declining 5-10% every year for the last few years, and we are already seeing some of the effects.  Studios have been selling those crappy made-on-demand DVD-Rs for years now.  And whenever a 3D movie comes out, it usually does not come out on 3D Blu-ray, and you have to import foreign 3D Blu-ray editions instead.  Maybe you don't care, but the situation is indeed getting more and more dire as time goes on.  A lot more discs would probably have been released if it weren't for these dire situations.  And in movie forums there are always people asking why certain movies are not out on discs.  My friend, the only sadder thing than bad disc sales is someone who doesn't even want to admit sales are bad.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRutan
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Just did a quick search and in Australia, the sales dipped from 2014-15 50.4% to 2016 50.1% of movies. See:
https://www.screenaustralia.gov.au/fact-finders/video-and-online/industry-trends/sales-by-type-of-content

Sales were 57.7% in 2012-2013.
Cheers
Kelvin
 Last edited: by Rutan
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